TPE franchise awarded to First

[Haydn1971]

12 of the new trains, specifically stated to be for WCML services, will be pure EMUs. Unless you know different, only one non-industry online news site has reported 125mph capable cascaded trains from other areas of the country being received by the Transpennine franchise.

It's also been reported this week that the EMU's were being split from the main TPE order - so, time will tell exactly what's been going off in dialogue between First and DfT since Dec 2015.

To repeat myself, 225s do not become available until mid 2019 at the earliest.

That was the case, however plans can change in the meantime, just in the same way that 387's have had to be ordered to help out before the deal on the 700's was agreed and the recent rumours of Hitachi offering more bi-modes (presumably at a nice profit) on the WCML to help ease the pain of electrification delay.

Yes, exactly as I said. One non-industry news site, whom I suspect it more likely to have gotten their wires crossed on this matter.

Possibly, although to be fair, it's been reported in a number of rags in the North of England, although these could be owned by the same newsgroup as the wording is the same.

 

[WatcherZero]

The presentations first and Arriva gave that the MEN article is based on have now been published, unhelpfully though the First one is of the type of a slideshow of buzzwords and has no details without the speech. Only detail is a timeline near the end.

Improve catering from April 2016
Refubish starts on existing trains from late 2016
Free wi-fi at 17 stations from 2017
Late 2017 brand new intercity carriages.
Late 2017 mobile tickets on all routes.
Late 2017 Ordsall Chord finished
Dec 2017 manchester airport-york extended to Newcastle. no weekend timetable, 'weekday' services 7days a week. 6tph Manchester-leeds.
July 2018 onboard entertainment on all trains.
Dec 2018 brand new 125mph intercity trains.
Dec 2018 Liverpool-glasgow services.
Dec 2018 major improvements to Manchester Oxford Road and Piccadilly
Dec 2019 Liverpool-Newcastle extended to Edinburgh.

Other snippets from the buzzwords. Growth, Rail in the North has a 1/3 share of long distance passengers, 2/3 has been achieved elsewhere in the country. £18m on stations (and what looks like a new passenger lounge at Man Pic as well as a first class lounge somewhere i cant determine, possibly Oxford Road. Couple of renders of new carriage interiors.

 

[sprinterguy]

It's also been reported this week that the EMU's were being split from the main TPE order - so, time will tell exactly what's been going off in dialogue between First and DfT since Dec 2015.

I can't see that 12 new 5-car electric trains for WCML services would be announced by the DfT as part of the official franchise award statement, only for a complete about-face to take place three months down the line.

 

[87015]

So...

Late 2017 brand new intercity carriages.

vs

Dec 2018 brand new 125mph intercity trains.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yep,

'Late 2017 brand new intercity carriages'
'Dec 2018 brand new state of the art intercity trains with speeds of up to 125mph'

 

[Haydn1971]

I can't see that 12 new 5-car electric trains for WCML services would be announced by the DfT as part of the official franchise award statement, only for a complete about-face to take place three months down the line.

Because DfT don't make u-turns ? Haha

 

[NotATrainspott]

Because DfT don't make u-turns ? Haha

How plausible is any scenario other than 12 new 5 car electric 125mph InterCity trains being built for the WCML? If I remember correctly, the only 125mph EMUs that exist in Britain today are the Pendolinos and the Javelins, and neither of them are suitable for Manchester-Scotland in the timeframe. Even if mini-Pendolinos did get ordered, the big Virgin ones wouldn't be any use on Manchester-Scotland as even in 9-car form they're far too long for most platforms.

There is no glaring issue with ordering more 125mph EMUs. There will be plenty of work for them to do until they reach the end of their life, so finance won't be an issue. Out of the five main train manufacturers (Siemens, Bombardier, Hitachi, CAF and Alstom) only the latter three have anything to offer in this segment right now, and the last two have no other major orders which would prevent speedy delivery.

Really, I think you're misinterpreting the limited amount of bad quality information that is currently out in the public domain about this. Splitting the 12 EMUs from the main bi-mode order makes perfect sense, since the two fleets will be entirely separate and there should be competition for the EMU order that doesn't exist for the bi-mode order. If splitting it allows the order to go to someone other than Hitachi, then the trains could be built in parallel and delivered in time for the deadline that has already been released.

 

[jw]

The presentations first and Arriva gave that the MEN article is based on have now been published, unhelpfully though the First one is of the type of a slideshow of buzzwords and has no details without the speech. Only detail is a timeline near the end.

Improve catering from April 2016
Refubish starts on existing trains from late 2016
Free wi-fi at 17 stations from 2017
Late 2017 brand new intercity carriages.
Late 2017 mobile tickets on all routes.
Late 2017 Ordsall Chord finished
Dec 2017 manchester airport-york extended to Newcastle. no weekend timetable, 'weekday' services 7days a week. 6tph Manchester-leeds.
July 2018 onboard entertainment on all trains.
Dec 2018 brand new 125mph intercity trains.
Dec 2018 Liverpool-glasgow services.
Dec 2018 major improvements to Manchester Oxford Road and Piccadilly
Dec 2019 Liverpool-Newcastle extended to Edinburgh.

Other snippets from the buzzwords. Growth, Rail in the North has a 1/3 share of long distance passengers, 2/3 has been achieved elsewhere in the country. £18m on stations (and what looks like a new passenger lounge at Man Pic as well as a first class lounge somewhere i cant determine, possibly Oxford Road. Couple of renders of new carriage interiors.

Presentations at this link for those interested.

 

[thealexweb]

The Transpennnine presentation was frankly awful. Poorly presented and no new information.

 

[43074]

Because DfT don't make u-turns ? Haha

I think you're reading too much into the limited information that's out there, until TPE confirm on 1st April what their actual plans are there will be much speculation; they are being very tight lipped about their plans. However,it has always been known that the new fleet will be split 12/32 - 12 125mph EMUs for Manchester/Liverpool - Scotland and 32 new bi-mode units for North TPE, and that these will be brand new; to argue any differently is pointless because that information is in the public domain and has been confirmed by DfT & TPE.

Presentations at this link for those interested.

I don't think the style of the First powerpoint could have been more unprofessional if they'd tried! Opening slide... ''Hello'' :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see a massive issue with an informal approach to presentations, but the only concrete thing that one seems to show is a 185 refurb.

 

[jayiscupid]

How plausible is any scenario other than 12 new 5 car electric 125mph InterCity trains being built for the WCML? If I remember correctly, the only 125mph EMUs that exist in Britain today are the Pendolinos and the Javelins, and neither of them are suitable for Manchester-Scotland in the timeframe. Even if mini-Pendolinos did get ordered, the big Virgin ones wouldn't be any use on Manchester-Scotland as even in 9-car form they're far too long for most platforms.

There is no glaring issue with ordering more 125mph EMUs. There will be plenty of work for them to do until they reach the end of their life, so finance won't be an issue. Out of the five main train manufacturers (Siemens, Bombardier, Hitachi, CAF and Alstom) only the latter three have anything to offer in this segment right now, and the last two have no other major orders which would prevent speedy delivery.

Really, I think you're misinterpreting the limited amount of bad quality information that is currently out in the public domain about this. Splitting the 12 EMUs from the main bi-mode order makes perfect sense, since the two fleets will be entirely separate and there should be competition for the EMU order that doesn't exist for the bi-mode order. If splitting it allows the order to go to someone other than Hitachi, then the trains could be built in parallel and delivered in time for the deadline that has already been released.

Bombardier have talked about a 125mph Aventra unit with 1/3, 2/3 doors and Siemens have presented their new 125mph Verve EMU. Could this be the cause of the delay?
Only issues could be both manufacturers are busy with Thameslink/Great Northern/SWT/Crossrail and then there's the question of could they still make the DfT 2018 deadline with an untried new train?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Looking at the images of the new trains, yes they are artist impressions, but looking at the details the internal fittings are typical desiro fittings.......

Speculation?....


As mentioned earlier, theres nothing being mentioned internally, and staff are quite rightly getting frustrated at the lack of info, especially with the TUPE to northern that some west side staff will be doing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The only concrete thing that one seems to show is a 185 refurb.

Which is most certainly something to be welcomed.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The Transpennnine presentation was frankly awful. Poorly presented and no new information.

Looking at the images of the new trains, yes they are artist impressions, but looking at the details the internal fittings are typical desiro fittings.......

Speculation?....


As mentioned earlier, theres nothing being mentioned internally, and staff are quite rightly getting frustrated at the lack of info, especially with the TUPE to northern that some west side staff will be doing.

Staff roadshows have started internally to allegedly address these concerns.

Speaking to a couple of people who have so far attended, the response to basically every single question about anything at all is generally either "we don't know and will add that to the list of questions to feed back later" or "we can't say". The information being presented contains nothing new, apparently, and just some video or other basically saying exactly the same general infomation already disseminated on posters.

So all in all not doing anything to quell the restlessness.

In other news, the drivers are currently balloting for industrial action due to an alleged complete breakdown in industrial relations matters.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In other news, the drivers are currently balloting for industrial action due to an alleged complete breakdown in industrial relations matters.

When the time period leading to the results of the ballot and of any formal notification of industrial action, how long will the time period be from that time to the end of the current franchise, noting that you say "alleged compete breakdown in industrial relations matters", which logically, that can only apply to the current franchise,?

 

[sprinterguy]

Looking at the images of the new trains, yes they are artist impressions, but looking at the details the internal fittings are typical desiro fittings.......

Speculation?....

I suppose it depends if the images are supposed to show the new trains or the interior of a refurbished 185. Without context, it's difficult to say.

 

[northwichcat]

In other news, the drivers are currently balloting for industrial action due to an alleged complete breakdown in industrial relations matters.

So is the dispute with First Kelios TransPennine Express over the current franchise? RMT infamously tried to call a strike over proposed changes during the next Northern franchise and were told such a strike would be illegal as it can only be against the current employer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose it depends if the images are supposed to show the new trains or the interior of a refurbished 185. Without context, it's difficult to say.

True, though it looks so much like a 185 I'd conclude it was. The Desiro Verve has a different shape of bodyshell and window which I think would be noticeable.

 

[northwichcat]

Looking at the images of the new trains, yes they are artist impressions, but looking at the details the internal fittings are typical desiro fittings.......

Speculation?....

But then their little drawing of the new trains in the infographic shows end doors.

I think that's a mockup of what the refurbished 185s are going to look like. The standard class one looks exactly like a 185 with a blue and grey interior instead of a purple one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would be astonished if the main TPE units were end-doored AT300s but the Scottish ones, the only part of their service that is truly InterCity, retained 20m suburban EMUs with doors at thirds.

 

[northwichcat]

I would be astonished if the main TPE units were end-doored AT300s but the Scottish ones, the only part of their service that is truly InterCity, retained 20m suburban EMUs with doors at thirds.

So a Liverpool to Edinburgh service calling at Man Vic, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle and Morpeth won't be an Intercity service in your opinion?

However, Manchester Airport to Edinburgh calling at Man Picc, Man Oxford Rd, Bolton, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie and Haymarket will be Intercity, despite calling at more stations over a shorter distance?

 

[northwichcat]

How plausible is any scenario other than 12 new 5 car electric 125mph InterCity trains being built for the WCML? If I remember correctly, the only 125mph EMUs that exist in Britain today are the Pendolinos and the Javelins, and neither of them are suitable for Manchester-Scotland in the timeframe.

Remember the Pendolinos were built as 140mph trains, so it's possible a new 125mph train is built but gets limited to 110mph or possibly 115mph.

Even if mini-Pendolinos did get ordered, the big Virgin ones wouldn't be any use on Manchester-Scotland as even in 9-car form they're far too long for most platforms.

For most? Manchester Airport and Manchester Oxford Rd are the only two stations which TPE's Manchester to Scotland services will serve which Virgin either don't serve or plan to serve (They'll be Virgin Bolton-Manchester-London services in the future.) Do Virgin use SDO at a lot of stations?

Of course we know TPE have committed to 5 car electric trains.

 

[northwichcat]

Subsidy level for next TPE franchise: https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/699519328383852545

 

[scrapy]

Neither Manchester Airport or Manchester Oxford Road will accommodate a 9 car pendoleno and selective door opening would not be an option here as the trains would not be allowed to foul the points and bring everything else to a stand.

 

[WatcherZero]

Oxford Road platforms are being lengthened, the only station with an issue will be the Airport.

 

[Haydn1971]

Oxford Road platforms are being lengthened, the only station with an issue will be the Airport.

Only to 8 carriage lengths I believe - Manchester Airport would be easy to extend in comparison to Oxford Road

 

[driver_m]

Remember the Pendolinos were built as 140mph trains, so it's possible a new 125mph train is built but gets limited to 110mph or possibly 115mph.



For most? Manchester Airport and Manchester Oxford Rd are the only two stations which TPE's Manchester to Scotland services will serve which Virgin either don't serve or plan to serve (They'll be Virgin Bolton-Manchester-London services in the future.) Do Virgin use SDO at a lot of stations?

Of course we know TPE have committed to 5 car electric trains.

The only station that the SDO regularly sees use is at Haymarket. The others are all platforms which rarely have pendos on them. It only sees use on 11 car sets. It still is a 140mph set. Only the infrastructure that's stopping it not the train itself, and when are we supposedly running a Bolton service?

 

[wellhouse]

.......and what looks like a new passenger lounge at Man Pic as well as a first class lounge somewhere i cant determine, possibly Oxford Road. Couple of renders of new carriage interiors.

The view through the lounge windows in the illustration looks very much like St Georges Square in Huddersfield. FTPE applied for planning permission for a First Class Lounge here a few months ago

 

[Thomas6187]

TPE have begun a very sight livery change, by changing the styling for the word Trans Pennine on the side of the units. Currently the "Pennine" part is pink with the First Logo. It appears to be changing the plain white text and no logo. So far I only seen 185127 done like this