TPE class 185 diagrams

[SteveyBee131]

So, with changes up ahead in one way or another with TPE's fleet, I got to trying to work out the class 185 diagrams as they are at present.

In a simple world, to cover all services that I know are run by the type, it would require 44 sets if my workings out are correct.

But of course, some services are worked by double sets, but on the North side I'm not sure exactly which ones. So my first question, does anyone know (or could anyone send me in the right direction to find out) which North TransPennine services are worked by double sets?

My workings out include the units hired to Northern, and I'm a little bit hazy on what those 2 units do exactly. So my second question, does anyone know (or again, could anyone send me in the right direction to find out) which services fit into this category.

Many thanks in advance for any help which can be provided

 

[Greybeard33]

I worked out the Northern 185 diagrams in May last year, and I believe there have been only minor changes since then:

From the Working Timetable, it appears that the planned diagrams from May 2018 are as follows (platform numbers not necessarily reliable):

Diagram A:
(1B59 0325 SHeFfield to Manchester International Airport P3B, 0510)
Handover TPE > Northern
1N51* 0542 MIA, P3B - PREston P3, 0652
5U54* 0654 PRE P3, 0652 - PRE P6, 0719, ECS
1Y54 0728 PRE P6 - MIA P4A, 0833, front portion
1C51 0841 MIA P2A - PRE P1, 0949, rear portion
5U57* 1000 PRE P1 - PRE P6, 1021, ECS
1Y57* 1024 PRE P6 - MIA P2A, 1133
1C52 1141 MIA P2A - Barrow-In-Furness P1, 1414
1Y63 1448 BIF P2 - MIA P2A, 1733, rear portion from PRE
1C54 1742 MIA P2A - BIF P1, 2014 front portion to PRE
5N63* 2020 BIF P1 - Barrow Carriage Sidings [XBF] 2023, ECS
(This unit then works Diagram B the following day)

Diagram B:
5U91* 0600 XBF - BIF P2, 0603
1Y54 0611 BIF P2 - MIA P4A, 0833, rear portion from PRE
1C51 0841 MIA P2A - BIF P1, 1114, front portion to PRE
1Y60 1153 BIF P1 - MIA P2B, 1433
1N60* 1440 MIA P2B - PRE P1, 1550
5U63* 1552 PRE P1 - PRE P6, 1601, ECS
1Y63 1624 PRE P6 - MIA P2A, 1733, front portion
1C54 1742 MIA P2A - PRE P1, 1850, rear portion
5U66* 1901 PRE P1 - PRE P2, 1912, ECS
1Y66* 1923 PRE P2 - MIA P2A, 2031
1N66* 2039 MIA P2A - PRE P1, 2152
5U69* 2154 PRE P1 - PRE P4, 2216, ECS
1Y69* 2222 PRE P4 - MIA P1A, 2333
Handback Northern > TPE
(5W77 0101 MIA P1A - Ardwick Traction Maintenance Depot [XRK], 0123, ECS, rear portion)

* Service pathed for 75mph Sprinter

The 185 hire to Northern is planned to end from the May 2019 timetable change, with Northern then using 158s on the Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere services until the 195s take over later in the year. According to the following post by @BMIFlyer one of the 185s will be used to replace the 170 TPE is currently hiring from Northern for Leeds - Huddersfield services, while the other will be used to extend layovers at Scarborough:

Correct, the class 170 is being replaced with a 185.

As of today the actual plan is that the other 185 from Northern will be used to extend the layovers at Scarborough to 70 mins, keeping the unit with the operating crew - currently the crew stays and the unit doesn’t.

 

[darloscott]

Check the list of departures from Leeds on Realtime... most are allocated to platform 15A/15B or 16A/16B, there are a handful allocated to just 15 or 16, suggesting these could be 6 car services.
1P61 0548 Manchester Airport - Middlesbrough definitely is as it drops a unit in Leeds to go to Hull.
There is definitely a 6 car diagram on Middlesbrough's as I've seen one being turned at Guisborough Jn but can't remember what time of day.

 

[SteveyBee131]

I worked out the Northern 185 diagrams in May last year, and I believe there have been only minor changes since then:

The 185 hire to Northern is planned to end from the May 2019 timetable change, with Northern then using 158s on the Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere services until the 195s take over later in the year. According to the following post by @BMIFlyer one of the 185s will be used to replace the 170 TPE is currently hiring from Northern for Leeds - Huddersfield services, while the other will be used to extend layovers at Scarborough:

Thanks @Greybeard33, that's very helpful! with some of those workings being timed for Sprinters, it does make them need a bit more digging to work out! I did get something similar but was uncertain, so the confirmation is appreciated, thank you

Check the list of departures from Leeds on Realtime... most are allocated to platform 15A/15B or 16A/16B, there are a handful allocated to just 15 or 16, suggesting these could be 6 car services...

Useful tips, thanks @darloscott. I shall investigate this very plausible theory further...

 

[Peter A]

Check the list of departures from Leeds on Realtime... most are allocated to platform 15A/15B or 16A/16B, there are a handful allocated to just 15 or 16, suggesting these could be 6 car services.
1P61 0548 Manchester Airport - Middlesbrough definitely is as it drops a unit in Leeds to go to Hull.
There is definitely a 6 car diagram on Middlesbrough's as I've seen one being turned at Guisborough Jn but can't remember what time of day.

As mentioned above there is indeed a 6 car Middlesbrough diagram as outlined below:

5P63 0540 Ardwick T.M.D to Manchester Airport
1P63 0647 Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough
1P70 0957 Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport
1P75 1247 Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough
1P82 1557 Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport
1B90 1853 Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes

The journeys above running through Leeds, which are known to be 6 car, are designated to stop at just 15 or 16, which further supports the theory that all services designated as such are 6 car workings.

 

[ValleyLines142]

On that basis, I have the following services down from Leeds to Manchester as being 6 car workings for this Thursday coming:

0639 to Manchester
0840 to Manchester
1118 to Manchester Airport
1640 to Manchester
1718 to Manchester Airport
2218 to Manchester Airport
2329 to Manchester

None of the Liverpool services appear to be six cars.

 

[Greybeard33]

As mentioned above there is indeed a 6 car Middlesbrough diagram as outlined below:

5P63 0540 Ardwick T.M.D to Manchester Airport
1P63 0647 Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough
1P70 0957 Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport
1P75 1247 Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough
1P82 1557 Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport
1B90 1853 Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes

The journeys above running through Leeds, which are known to be 6 car, are designated to stop at just 15 or 16, which further supports the theory that all services designated as such are 6 car workings.

That diagram also has a very short turnaround at the Airport (1240-1247) instead of interworking between Middlesbrough and Newcastle services, as is the normal pattern for 3-car diagrams.

From the May TT change all Airport 185 workings appear to be booked to occupy only half an Airport platform (A or B end), which implies they will all be 3-car.

 

[Peter A]

That diagram also has a very short turnaround at the Airport (1240-1247) instead of interworking between Middlesbrough and Newcastle services, as is the normal pattern for 3-car diagrams.

From the May TT change all Airport 185 workings appear to be booked to occupy only half an Airport platform (A or B end), which implies they will all be 3-car.

All trains from Manchester Airport are currently booked an A or B platform on realtimetrains regardless of being 3 or 6 car, which is the same after the May timetable change. It is Leeds where some trains which appear to be 6 car are booked a full platform and not a half platform. Obviously it is not the most foolproof method as from the May timetable change a number of workings are down as 15/16 which don't seem likely to be 6-cars such as most of the Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport and Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street workings. As you say the interworking seems to result in the removal of the Middlesbrough service, however I can speculate that given the following running boards or part running boards always use 15 or 16 that these may be allocated 6 car 185s from the May timetable change.

1E23 0556 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F60 0941½ Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street
1E37 1256 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F72 1544 Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street

1E25 0656 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F62 1041½ Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street
1E39 1356 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F76 1744 Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street

 

[_toommm_]

The 08:53 Airport to Cleethorpes used to be double 185 - unsure if it still is though.

 

[JonathanH]

All trains from Manchester Airport are currently booked an A or B platform on realtimetrains regardless of being 3 or 6 car, which is the same after the May timetable change. It is Leeds where some trains which appear to be 6 car are booked a full platform and not a half platform. Obviously it is not the most foolproof method as from the May timetable change a number of workings are down as 15/16 which don't seem likely to be 6-cars such as most of the Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport and Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street workings. As you say the interworking seems to result in the removal of the Middlesbrough service, however I can speculate that given the following running boards or part running boards always use 15 or 16 that these may be allocated 6 car 185s from the May timetable change.

1E23 0556 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F60 0941½ Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street
1E37 1256 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F72 1544 Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street

1E25 0656 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F62 1041½ Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street
1E39 1356 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F76 1744 Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street

Those are the workings which were meant to go over to 68+Mk3 so perhaps earmarked for the first 68+Mk5 operations in due course rather than being 6-185 now.

 

[Greybeard33]

All trains from Manchester Airport are currently booked an A or B platform on realtimetrains regardless of being 3 or 6 car, which is the same after the May timetable change. It is Leeds where some trains which appear to be 6 car are booked a full platform and not a half platform. Obviously it is not the most foolproof method as from the May timetable change a number of workings are down as 15/16 which don't seem likely to be 6-cars such as most of the Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport and Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street workings. As you say the interworking seems to result in the removal of the Middlesbrough service, however I can speculate that given the following running boards or part running boards always use 15 or 16 that these may be allocated 6 car 185s from the May timetable change.

1E23 0556 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F60 0941½ Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street
1E37 1256 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F72 1544 Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street

1E25 0656 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F62 1041½ Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street
1E39 1356 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F76 1744 Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street

A 6-car train is always booked into an A platform at the Airport, because it is too long to fit into just the B (outer) half. But where 185s are booked into an A platform after May, in most cases another train is booked to come into the B half on top, with a quicker turnaround. There would not be room for this if the TPE train were a 6-car. This does seem to tally with your deductions of 6-cars going to Liverpool, not the Airport, after May.

As you say, platform bookings are not immutable, and it will be possible for TPE to end Newcastle/Middlesbrough interworking at the Airport in order to use longer trains (if it dares to risk the consequent hit on punctuality performance). Presumably this is the intention if Mk5A Middlesbrough - Airport diagrams are introduced from November, as reported in the Mk5A thread:
TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

 

[BMIFlyer]

1E23 0556 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F60 0941½ Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street
1E37 1256 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F72 1544 Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street

1E25 0656 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F62 1041½ Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street
1E39 1356 Liverpool Lime Street to Scarborough
1F76 1744 Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street

Those diagrams are the first Mk5A workings. When they start.

 

[SteveyBee131]

The 08:53 Airport to Cleethorpes used to be double 185 - unsure if it still is though.

It is indeed. When it gets to Cleethorpes the front unit detaches and waits for the following train to work a round trip with it instead.
Living nearby to the line through Grimsby I've been able to work out most of the anomalies on the South TPE workings.

It will be interesting to see how things work out with the new trains, and thank you all for your thoughts and insights with those. But for now I'll try not to let my own thread go too far off track

 

[Crossover]

Some will be clear where RTT shows them as services to x and y. Eg I think there is, or was, one at Dewsbury that’s to Middlesbrough and Hull, or similar

 

[Jamesrob637]

No doubles to Newcastle, even if one set divides at Leeds/York?

 

[Killingworth]

There have been a number of regular doubles on the South Pennine route for some time. Not enough of them, and not as regular as they need to be.

The 05.07 out of Cleethorpes, 1B65, is supposed to have 6 for the Sheffield - Airport section and may be all the way.
The 16.53 out of the Airport, 1B86, is supposed to have 6. Unsure how much further all 6 go after Sheffield.

There's an eastbound train in the middle of the day often has 6. If more were reliably 6 cars more people would become regular rail users.

Barnetby recently had its platforms extended to take 6 so it seems likely many will be going all the way. Habrough may only take 5, as does Meadowhall. Dore & Totley only takes 4 (until 2022?) so SDO procedures are currently needed for these stations.

You can usually tell if the train was 6 or 3 cars by checking how long it dwells at Dore & Totley. 1 minute as booked is probably 3 car. 2-3 minutes means it was probably 6 as half the passengers (about 50?) with bikes and luggage try to get in or out of one door in the rear unit!

The 185 is a pleasant train when seats are available. The 3 car set up is dire for flexible operation. 158s are potentially better because they can be run as 4, 6 or 8 cars. However short forming and the fixed nature of so many of our trains is a real disincentive to use them. The days when a spare carriage or two could be added to almost any train at fairly short notice are long gone. The basic lack of rolling stock, the fragmentation into different franchises, and the multiplicity of incompatible classes of trains makes this all the worse.

As far as I've been able to deduce, from May the 6 coach trains will run into the A platforms with a lay-over, followed by a short stay Liverpool 2 car Northern into the B, leaving before the TPE departs.

It's going to be interesting to see how many 6 coach trains make it all the way to the Airport, and their punctuality. Looks challenging.

*One unit is used on the Cleethorpes- Barton-on-Humber service early and late - the rest of the day it's operated by a 153.

 

[clagmonster]

As mentioned above there is indeed a 6 car Middlesbrough diagram as outlined below:

5P63 0540 Ardwick T.M.D to Manchester Airport
1P63 0647 Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough
1P70 0957 Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport
1P75 1247 Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough
1P82 1557 Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport
1B90 1853 Manchester Airport to Cleethorpe.

The 18:53 Airport - Cleethorpes appears to split at Piccadilly, with half going to Ardwick on this:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y80782/2019/04/26/advanced
It is certainly only a single unit when it reaches Cleethorpes.

 

[clagmonster]

There have been a number of regular doubles on the South Pennine route for some time. Not enough of them, and not as regular as they need to be.

The 05.07 out of Cleethorpes, 1B65, is supposed to have 6 for the Sheffield - Airport section and may be all the way.
The 16.53 out of the Airport, 1B86, is supposed to have 6. Unsure how much further all 6 go after Sheffield.

There's an eastbound train in the middle of the day often has 6. If more were reliably 6 cars more people would become regular rail users.

Barnetby recently had its platforms extended to take 6 so it seems likely many will be going all the way. Habrough may only take 5, as does Meadowhall. Dore & Totley only takes 4 (until 2022?) so SDO procedures are currently needed for these stations.

You can usually tell if the train was 6 or 3 cars by checking how long it dwells at Dore & Totley. 1 minute as booked is probably 3 car. 2-3 minutes means it was probably 6 as half the passengers (about 50?) with bikes and luggage try to get in or out of one door in the rear unit!

The 185 is a pleasant train when seats are available. The 3 car set up is dire for flexible operation. 158s are potentially better because they can be run as 4, 6 or 8 cars. However short forming and the fixed nature of so many of our trains is a real disincentive to use them. The days when a spare carriage or two could be added to almost any train at fairly short notice are long gone. The basic lack of rolling stock, the fragmentation into different franchises, and the multiplicity of incompatible classes of trains makes this all the worse.

As far as I've been able to deduce, from May the 6 coach trains will run into the A platforms with a lay-over, followed by a short stay Liverpool 2 car Northern into the B, leaving before the TPE departs.

It's going to be interesting to see how many 6 coach trains make it all the way to the Airport, and their punctuality. Looks challenging.

*One unit is used on the Cleethorpes- Barton-on-Humber service early and late - the rest of the day it's operated by a 153.

The 05:07 off Cleethorpes is a 6 car throughout, though the rear 3 are locked out as far as Sheffield. This then returns on the 08:53 Airport - Cleethorpes, your middle of the day working. This then splits at Cleethorpes, with the 13:26 to the Airport picking up the unit left behind to run as 6, returning on the 16:53 off the Airport as you say. This is 6 coaches through to Cleethorpes. Monday - Thursday it splits, with one unit stabling at Cleethorpes. On Fridays, the 20:26 to the Airport is 6 also, not sure whether it splits en route. All are currently booked for a single unit at the weekend.

The usable length of a couple of the platforms has recently been extended at Barnetby. I don't think any take 6, but enough to take at least 4. Habrough can only take 4. The TPE plan is to use ASDO here, until this is introduced 6 cars an unable to stop at Habrough.

As I understand it, the plan is for all to gradually become 6 cars as the new stock is introduced on the Diggle route.

 

[Killingworth]

As I understand it, the plan is for all to gradually become 6 cars as the new stock is introduced on the Diggle route.

True, and that was hoped to begin months ago, although operating 6 end to end all day may be quite extravagant for much of the time. Hard to know how a section could be simply detached at Doncaster or Sheffield and stabled there until next required.

I travelled towards Cleethorpes last week and was interested to see how busy the train was from Doncaster and Scunthorpe to Cleethorpes. It was a nice day for holidaymakers!

 

[Greybeard33]

As far as I've been able to deduce, from May the 6 coach trains will run into the A platforms with a lay-over, followed by a short stay Liverpool 2 car Northern into the B, leaving before the TPE departs.

I remain sceptical that 6-cars are permitted to share a Manchester Airport platform at all, even with a 2-car train.

Evidence: the TPE South departures from the Airport that currently have a platform to themelves are the 0853, 1653, 1853 and 2330. That covers all the services that @clagmonster has identified as 6-car in posts #17 and #18.

After the May TT change the 0653 and 0753 departures additionally have an entire platform, but the 1853* no longer does.

In any case, I do not believe that (all of the) Northern Liverpool - Airport services (which share a platform with the Cleethorpes service most hours) are booked as 2-car, although they may sometimes be short formed. I am sure I have previously seen Train Formation Updates on the Northern JourneyCheck webpage saying that some of these services "Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 4".

I think there will have to be some juggling of Airport platforms if any of the departures from 0953 to 1553 inclusive, or 1753 to 2153 inclusive, are to become 6-car before the December TT change.

* The 1853 is currently an out of pattern service, formed from the 1837 arrival from Middlesbrough (presumably 6-car). After May it is formed instead from the 1825 arrival from Cleethorpes (presumably 3-car) as usual.

 

[Killingworth]

I remain sceptical that 6-cars are permitted to share a Manchester Airport platform at all, even with a 2-car train.

Evidence: the TPE South departures from the Airport that currently have a platform to themelves are the 0853, 1653, 1853 and 2330. That covers all the services that @clagmonster has identified as 6-car in posts #17 and #18.

After the May TT change the 0653 and 0753 departures additionally have an entire platform, but the 1853* no longer does.

In any case, I do not believe that (all of the) Northern Liverpool - Airport services (which share a platform with the Cleethorpes service most hours) are booked as 2-car, although they may sometimes be short formed. I am sure I have previously seen Train Formation Updates on the Northern JourneyCheck webpage saying that some of these services "Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 4".

I think there will have to be some juggling of Airport platforms if any of the departures from 0953 to 1553 inclusive, or 1753 to 2153 inclusive, are to become 6-car before the December TT change.

* The 1853 is currently an out of pattern service, formed from the 1837 arrival from Middlesbrough (presumably 6-car). After May it is formed instead from the 1825 arrival from Cleethorpes (presumably 3-car) as usual.

It will be interesting as Sheffield users were being promised 6 cars about two years ago. Maybe drop 3 at Piccadilly?

 

[VT 390]

The 05:07 off Cleethorpes is a 6 car throughout, though the rear 3 are locked out as far as Sheffield. This then returns on the 08:53 Airport - Cleethorpes, your middle of the day working. This then splits at Cleethorpes, with the 13:26 to the Airport picking up the unit left behind to run as 6, returning on the 16:53 off the Airport as you say. This is 6 coaches through to Cleethorpes. Monday - Thursday it splits, with one unit stabling at Cleethorpes. On Fridays, the 20:26 to the Airport is 6 also, not sure whether it splits en route. All are currently booked for a single unit at the weekend.

The usable length of a couple of the platforms has recently been extended at Barnetby. I don't think any take 6, but enough to take at least 4. Habrough can only take 4. The TPE plan is to use ASDO here, until this is introduced 6 cars an unable to stop at Habrough.

As I understand it, the plan is for all to gradually become 6 cars as the new stock is introduced on the Diggle route.

Why don't TPE just not stop at Habrough anymore as I think East Midlands trains (or their replacement) is planning an hourly service from Cleethorpes to Nottingham so this would fill in the gaps of the 2 hourly TPE service and maintain the same service frequency for Habrough. Connections could easily be made at Barnetby on to the TPE service.

 

[40C]

ASDO beacons have been fitted at Habrough in the last few weeks.

 

[Killingworth]

ASDO beacons have been fitted at Habrough in the last few weeks.

Looks like them at Dore too.

 

[Greybeard33]

It will be interesting as Sheffield users were being promised 6 cars about two years ago. Maybe drop 3 at Piccadilly?

I guess that might work if all TPE South services were 6-car west of Piccadilly. If not, there would be complications, with the "spare" 185 either cluttering up a Piccadilly platform for hours or needing paths and a driver to shunt to and from Ardwick.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Just a reminder, if a 5 or 6 car train is already in any platform at Man Airport, you can’t put another train in, even a 2 car as the second train is not allowed.

 

[js1000]

ASDO beacons have been fitted at Habrough in the last few weeks.

Looks like them at Dore too.

And on the Styal Line at Mauldeth Road, Burnage, Gatley etc.

Just a reminder, if a 5 or 6 car train is already in any platform at Man Airport, you can’t put another train in, even a 2 car as the second train is not allowed.

TPEs decision to use a loco-hauled 5 carriage train looks pretty daft considering all TPE start/end at Manchester Airport where platform capacity is thin on the ground. Apparently a couple of Northern services will have to skip Manchester Airport entirely and start/end at Wilmslow from next month due to a lack of platform space.

 

[BMIFlyer]

And on the Styal Line at Mauldeth Road, Burnage, Gatley etc.
TPEs decision to use a loco-hauled 5 carriage train looks pretty daft considering all TPE start/end at Manchester Airport where platform capacity is thin on the ground. Apparently a couple of Northern services will have to skip Manchester Airport entirely and start/end at Wilmslow from next month due to a lack of platform space.

1) Not “all TPE” trains start or end at MIA.


2) It’s not daft. The only other option is for people to be crammed onto 3 car 185’s for another 12-18 months until Hitachi can build more class 802’s.

TPE just can’t win in the eyes of certain people on here

 

[Greybeard33]

1) Not “all TPE” trains start or end at MIA.


2) It’s not daft. The only other option is for people to be crammed onto 3 car 185’s for another 12-18 months until Hitachi can build more class 802’s.

TPE just can’t win in the eyes of certain people on here

Well, TPE always intended that all three types of Nova train would run to Manchester Airport, and it specified them all as 5-car fixed formations despite knowing that the Airport platforms were designed to accommodate combinations of 4-car and 8-car trains.

If TPE had instead procured new 4-car units that could be split and joined en route, like the 185s and 350s, they would have made better use of the Airport platform capacity, as well as giving more flexibility in matching train capacity to demand.