TPE after electrification

[anti-pacer]

Does anybody know what stock is likely to operate the TPE services between the North East-Yorkshire-North West, once the wires are up?

I'm envisaging an order of 350's?

 

[anthony263]

well the 350/4's are only doing the Manchester Airport - scotland service and these will eventually be heading to London Midland.

The DFT is ordering some 110mph capable emu's for Thameslink with the expectation that these will go to the Midland Mainline an Transpenine although GW will need some for the Thames Valley services.

 

[anti-pacer]

well the 350/4's are only doing the Manchester Airport - scotland service and these will eventually be heading to London Midland.

The DFT is ordering some 110mph capable emu's for Thameslink with the expectation that these will go to the Midland Mainline an Transpenine although GW will need some for the Thames Valley services.

Are LM eventually taking over the Manchester Airport-Scotland services then?

So a new build EMU is likely for TPE then.... good!

 

[Polarbear]

It won't be 350's as they no longer meet crash-worthiness standards. The current order is only a follow on from the order for 350/2's & as mentioned above, the 10 x 350/4's being allocated to TPE are intended to transfer to London Midland as & when new stock is acquired for TPE.

I would expect something along the lines of a 110 mph capable, 4 car, buffed up 380 personally with 1st class & a galley area for a trolley. Doors at 1/3 & 2/3 positions. Nothing fancy, but functional.

Are LM eventually taking over the Manchester Airport-Scotland services then?

Nope. The 350/4's were always destined for LM - their use by TPE is only temporary. LM may not be running LM for much longer if they get any more warnings from DfT.

 

[SkinnyDave]

And I don't think TPE will be doing Manchester to Scotland after 2016 either

 

[swt_passenger]

Nope. The 350/4's were always destined for LM - their use by TPE is only temporary.

Evidence please?

However many times this gets posted, no-one has ever quoted anything official. The 350s are not being subleased from LM, the contract was fully novated to TPE.

Surely if they were planned to be a temporary transfer, they'd be subleased in a similar way to the SN 377/5s currently used by FCC?

 

[Masbroughlad]

And I don't think TPE will be doing Manchester to Scotland after 2016 either

Who will? West Coast or XC? Or someone else?!

 

[Haydn1971]

Cascaded 319's from FCC ?

 

[SkinnyDave]

I believe Virgin are negotiating as part of current extension for it to be part of next franchise for west coast

 

[Masbroughlad]

I believe Virgin are negotiating as part of current extension for it to be part of next franchise for west coast

Baby pendos then?

 

[SkinnyDave]

Don't know that was discussed extensively on another thread. Think Virgin have enough on plate with Network rail battles.

I personally feel that ICWC would be better off with route with tilting stock.
Either that or an open access operator.

 

[Polarbear]

Evidence please?

However many times this gets posted, no-one has ever quoted anything official. The 350s are not being subleased from LM, the contract was fully novated to TPE.

Surely if they were planned to be a temporary transfer, they'd be subleased in a similar way to the SN 377/5s currently used by FCC?

I'm sure I've read something in Modern Railways a while back regarding the 350/4's ending up with LM (or their successor) eventually. There may not be an "official" source as such, but to me, it makes more sense to build a new fleet of EMU's for TPE once the new franchise is re-let (and possibly re-mapped), with the the non-standard 350's (for TPE anyway) being used in a common pool elsewhere in the UK.

I agree the units aren't being sub-leased from LM & to be fair, I didn't actually say that they were. The contact is actually for 20 x 350 units, 10 of which are going to LM & 10 to TPE.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What're the odds on a new production run of class 89s and pressure-ventilated Mk2s, in the rather fetching 'Transpennine/Provincial' livery of the 1980s... With a DBSO at the Western end!

Seriously though, my money is on something akin to the 379/380s, though given the curvature of the Standedge route I wonder if something with tilt might be a contender? Perhaps a 'regional' version of the mythical 'baby Pendo'? (obviously built to current crashworthiness standards of course).

 

[Polarbear]

Some additional information regarding the procurement of the 350/4's for TPE;

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/extra-trains-and-faster-journey-times-will-boost-capacity

Passengers are on track to benefit from faster, longer trains and over 12,000 extra seats each day on journeys into London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle, Sheffield, Glasgow and Edinburgh, Rail Minister Theresa Villiers announced today.

The capacity boost is being provided thanks to 80 new train carriages set to be introduced on the First TransPennine Express and London Midland networks from December 2013. The two franchises will get 40 extra carriages each.

Theresa Villiers said:

This is great news for passengers who will get faster, longer trains and more seats. Increasing capacity on some of the busiest routes in the country is a key part of the major programme of rail capacity expansion we have promised to deliver. It is a vital way of responding to passenger concerns about crowding and providing an important stimulus to economic growth.

As rail travel becomes more popular operators must be able to meet growing demand and these new carriages will enable existing trains to be lengthened. These new trains will also run faster, which means extra train slots will come free, so that London Midland can fit more services into the timetable.

Current London Midland services travel at a maximum speed of 100 mph, but the train operator will modify some of their existing fleet to run at 110 mph - the maximum speed of the new-build trains - creating faster peak and off-peak services into London Euston.

Not only will this mean quicker journey times - the extra speed will help shave up to 25 minutes off existing Crewe to London Euston off-peak services, for example - but the new timings will create space for extra train slots enabling London Midland to boost capacity in the peak even further.

TransPennine Express’ 40 new carriages will be used on the Manchester to Scotland route following the electrification of the line between Manchester and the West Coast Main Line south of Wigan. The new carriages will enable existing diesel rolling stock to be redeployed across the franchise to increase capacity into Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield and Newcastle.

The new carriages are part of wider plans by the government to introduce 2,700 carriages onto the rail network by 2019.

Notes to editors
The new carriages, which will be built by Siemens, are being procured by London Midland on behalf of both TOCs. The leasing and operation of the additional carriages is being funded by an increase in government funding to the two TOCs of circa £41m to the planned end of their franchises. The procurement for London Midland was already underway when the electrification of Manchester and the West Coast Main Line south of Wigan was announced. The government therefore asked London Midland to extend this existing procurement to include trains needed for the Manchester - Scotland services.
The agreement with First TransPennine Express includes the electrification of the depot at Ardwick, Manchester, where those trains will be maintained.
London Midland will receive a total of 40 Class 350/3 carriages while TransPennine Express will receive 40 Class 350/4 carriages. The difference between London Midland and TransPennine Express’ carriages is that those on TransPennine Express will be configured slightly differently to meet the needs of long distance and airport passengers.
Of the 40 carriages London Midland will receive, 12 will help deliver an internal rolling stock cascade that will provide additional capacity on the Cross City line in Birmingham. The frequency of peak and off-peak services between Birmingham and Redditch will be increased from two trains per hour to three trains per hour from December 2014. The trains will also enable electric services from Birmingham New Street to be extended to Bromsgrove from May 2015, assuming that the plan to relocate Bromsgrove Station is confirmed and electrification is completed on schedule.
The other 28 London Midland carriages will provide faster peak journeys and extra capacity on services into London Euston from December 2014. For example, the peak journey times between London and Northampton will be reduced by up to 10 minutes and the services between Milton Keynes and London will be reduced by up to 7 minutes. In addition, London Midland will be able to run 3 additional AM peak services and 5 additional PM peak services into and out of London Euston.
Commuters into London Euston will also benefit from faster journeys due to modifications to increase in maximum speed of some of London Midland’s existing fleet from 100 mph to 110 mph. The modified trains will deliver faster off-peak services and these are expected to be introduced from December 2012.

 

[Oswyntail]

... would expect something along the lines of a 110 mph capable, 4 car, buffed up 380 personally with 1st class & a galley area for a trolley. Doors at 1/3 & 2/3 positions. Nothing fancy, but functional.....

Wouldn't it show a little imagination if they were 5 or even 6 cars - unless the order will be large enough to have all trains of at least two units. There is likely to be massive passenger growth, and we do not want to repeat the mistake of the 3-car 185s

 

[Nym]

Why not just have fixed formation 8 car units with SDO and a re-built of Oxford Road station?

Possibly 4 car units, gangwayed with most services doubled up...?

 

[transmanche]

Wouldn't it show a little imagination if they were 5 or even 6 cars - unless the order will be large enough to have all trains of at least two units. There is likely to be massive passenger growth, and we do not want to repeat the mistake of the 3-car 185s

It was said at the time the 185s came into service that additional carriages could (and hopefully would) be inserted.[*] From what I've read on here, it would seem that emissions rules have changed in the meantime - meaning that new carriages can't be built to the old spec. (Although why new carriages can't be built using a compliant engine baffles me. Or even just inserting a trailer car, as so many people claim the 185s are over-powered.) I guess the same is true of Voyagers/Meridians.

An example of where the policy of inserting carriages later to meet growing demand has worked well is London Overground's Class 378 Capitalstars. The first batch were ordered as 3-car units, later extended to 4-car and TfL have announced plans to add a fifth carriage.

* "TPE has told us they are keen to secure a fourth carriage for use on the busiest services." Passenger Focus, May 2007.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It was said at the time the 185s came into service that additional carriages could (and hopefully would) be inserted.[*] From what I've read on here, it would seem that emissions rules have changed in the meantime - meaning that new carriages can't be built to the old spec. (Although why new carriages can't be built using a compliant engine baffles me. Or even just inserting a trailer car, as so many people claim the 185s are over-powered.) I guess the same is true of Voyagers/Meridians.

An example of where the policy of inserting carriages later to meet growing demand has worked well is London Overground's Class 378 Capitalstars. The first batch were ordered as 3-car units, later extended to 4-car and TfL have announced plans to add a fifth carriage.

* "TPE has told us they are keen to secure a fourth carriage for use on the busiest services." Passenger Focus, May 2007.

Of course, it's far easier to extend EMUs as the emissions aren't an issue (well they are, but they take place at power stations rather than on board!) but I'd certainly say that an extra trailer car for the 185s would be an idea depending on where they end up after the TPE wires: In their present form they're not really viable for many potential routes as they don't add much if any capacity compared to the status-quo (I'm thinking Liverpool-Norwich/Cardiff-Portsmouth/Welsh Marches/North Wales Coast/Waterloo-Exeter here) and those routes aren't so arduous that the extra weight of a trailer wouldn't affect their performance too much. Other potential routes would be the Cambrian or the Highland Main Line, but adding an extra trailer would have an impact on these routes much as it would on their present 'home'.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think we are getting ahead of ourselves.
The DfT will NOT be ordering stock for TPE. TOCs buy/lease trains (except for IEP/Thameslink/Crossrail).
They might (?) give TPE clearance to buy stock for the 2019 network, but I would guess this will be only when the future franchise split (if any) between Northern and TP is decided, and when the destination of the Thameslink cascades is settled.
They might also get some of the order Southern is masterminding.
Northern and GW also have EMU stock needs, which may or may not be satisfied by cascaded 319s.
Somebody will also have to worry about maintenance depot policy.

There are too many unknowns to be certain of anything at the moment. Each confirmed franchise extension will fill in bits of the jig-saw (VT next).
Hopefully in 10 days' time (when the Thameslink standstill is over) the DfT will clarify things a bit in terms of dates for Thameslink and therefore the subsequent cascade.

Apropos of class 350, I was pleased to find that the Birmingham-Liverpool 350/1 I was on today reached 110mph easily between Wolverhampton-Penkridge and Stafford-Crewe.
So 110mph is not confined to south of Rugby. This gives Siemens an edge over Bombardier for the time being.

 

[swt_passenger]

I agree the units aren't being sub-leased from LM & to be fair, I didn't actually say that they were. The contact is actually for 20 x 350 units, 10 of which are going to LM & 10 to TPE.

Apologies as I didn't explain myself too well. I was just trying to point that the contract novation, rather than subleasing, was possible evidence that they weren't going back to LM. Wasn't meant to imply that you personally were assuming it was a sublease...

 

[Polarbear]

Apologies as I didn't explain myself too well. I was just trying to point that the contract novation, rather than subleasing, was possible evidence that they weren't going back to LM. Wasn't meant to imply that you personally were assuming it was a sublease...

No worries.

To be honest, the units could end up anywhere in the future. The 442's were built for the London - Bournemouth line but ended up working the Brighton service which I wouldn't have put money on in the 1980's...!!