Hattermick
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Read recently that when the TPE 170's go to Chiltern they will be renumbered into the 168/3 series,does anyone know anything about this. Thanks.
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TPE 170's
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They aren't going to Chiltern anymore.
Manchester77
Established Member
Where'd you hear that?! Be careful because if you're using the TfGMC minutes that's been pointed out as a mistake but there may be another source?
Chiltern Staff mainly.
Manchester77
Established Member
They might be getting confused because in the direct award for TPE, which is currently in negotiations with the DfT, is been rumoured that a phased cascade of the 170s would occur therefore Chiltern wouldn't get them all immediately which is where the confusion may lie
Oh right, thanks.
Any idea what TPE will do when Chiltern get there 170s as they will be very low in stock even with the 350s. Maybe buck the 185s up to 4 or 5 car so you won't need to double them up and get a few XC/LM/GA/SR 170s. (A few meaning 5).
Manchester77
Established Member
The most common idea is to pinch some 158s off Northern which would be made up for by Northern gaining the 14 319s. I don't think anything as elaborate as what you're planning has been proposed although I'd imagine they are looking at cascades from other operators like SR.
scotsman
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Except that ScotRail's 170s are under Transport Scotland's control, not the DfT's.
edwin_m
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I think Transport Scotland holds the lease for the 380s but other ScotRail units are owned by ROSCOs and leased to Scotrail. If so, in principle the same thing could happen to them as has (probably) to TPE's 170s. Transport Scotland could prevent this by signing up to a leasing agreement themselves, or agreeing for Scotrail to extend the lease which is passed on to the new franchise.
t_star2001uk
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AFAIK the TPE 170's will not be with Chiltern until 2015 only after they have been refurbed and redesignated as 168/3....
Heck, do you have any idea what routes they will be used on as my grandparents home station is Malton and when I am there I usually take a 185 to York which I can deal with. But a 158...
Cherry_Picker
Established Member
Really? I've heard no such rumour. AFAIK they will be arriving in summer 2015 as has been the case since the deal was struck.
thealexweb
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I heard on this forum a while back that Northern's franchise extension contains a clause that no stock can be lost for the remainder of the franchise regardless of what new stock arrives.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Scotrail would be the easiest place to obtain stock. The surplus of stock compared to other TOCs is starting to get difficult for Transport Scotland to hide.
Electrification to Cumbernauld and Whifflet allowed spare DMUs. These are being used for the Commonwealth Games and Ryder Cup strengthening after which service increase on the West Highland and Fife Circle loco + coaches replacement. That will still leave five surplus units.
I understand Scotrail is giving up 5x156 units to Northern to replace 158s lost to TPE.
I understand Scotrail is giving up 5x156 units to Northern to replace 158s lost to TPE.
thealexweb
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The loco set is popular with users and has been fairly reliable. Taking any rolling stock out of the system should be discouraged.
Why involve Northern in this? Scotrail should lose 9 x 158s to provide a like for like replacement in terms of numbers.
And the Borders railway will run with what?
thealexweb
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What will the Todmorden Curve be opening with? Its launch has been delayed due to a lack of stock and its waiting for a Pacer. I sympathise with the Borders people but a 158 does seem a bit premium for such a small route. There are far more major routes in England running with Pacers e.g. Manchester Airport to Southport / Liverpool Lime Street.
Scotrail has proven loco-hauled works great on the Fife Circle. Leverage more loco-hauled sets to free up more DMUs.
Moving a microfleet of Pacers is not a solution.
Commonality is a major factor in stock provision. There's spare sets coming from within, so it makes complete sense for an internal shuffle.
Has it? It's popular with (some) people on here, because it's a novelty.
I'd wager heavily that Scotrail would prefer more 170's to increase the flexibility, and get rid of the odd-ball train, that's used on 2 diagrams a day.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
If the extra revenue of running more trips with the loco-hauled train outweighed the extra costs, then they'd be running it more than twice a day.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
There is a clue in the title to why that service works
It won’t work in many other places. It must cost them a fortune!Put a loco hauled train on the borders line and you need to top and tail as I don’t think there are run round facilities at the terminus.
Want to know how many units Scotland will loose? 0. None. Nil. Nada.Zilch. Why? Because they are Scotland and Independent Soctlandland/ Remaining in the union but bought off by lots of tax payers money Scotlandland wont want to reduce service provision in any way.
Northern are involved because Scotrail is not giving up 158s. They are giving up 5x156s to Northern who in turn are giving up 158s to TPE. The other four units will become available due to 319 cascade between December 2014 and March 2015 to release 158s. It can't be simple. It has to be complicated.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
As for the TPE 170's i expect them to stay with TPE via a sub lease from Chiltern
Given that Chiltern need the additional capacity and have a legally binding contract why exactly would they do this? DfT would have to do something exceptionally special to make it worth Chiltern's while.....
Manchester77
Established Member
Because they don't need them until their services to Oxford begin and therefore some can remain subleased to TPE.
Yes I understand that but the post I responded to didn't have any time caveat (ie it suggested that the arrangement would be permament).
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Manchester 77 has given you the answer. The DFT WILL Make it worth Chilterns while to sub lease back to TPE for a 2/3 year period. There is an awful lot of work going on behind the scenes on this and similar issues. (There are a couple of other similar lease matters on the horizon soon)
The ROSCO has copped a lot of flak for signing the Chiltern deal in the first place but considering the only long term deal on the table was from Chiltern what else could they do other than sign it?
Just noticed i missed the 2/3 years timescale of my original post.
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Manchester77
Established Member
Quite and as much as the DfT likes to pretend this is a 'market issue' and it's left to the 'market' they were the ones who authorised it and are heavily involved in the rolling stock market. Augusts Modern Railways' informed sources has a bit about the NAO criticising the DfTs rolling stock policy of 'it's down to the TOCs' and yet they then order three big fleets and use TOCs to order trains themselves. All very confusing
scotsman
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The Fife Circle loco hauled service does not work. It's much slower than comparable services, it's poorly cleaned, it's abused by commuters (some of whom don't understand the concept of CDL), it requires double manning by conductors, and is incredibly unpopular with many who use it. So unpopular that many regulars actually went to other services/buses to commute.
(Scotland won't lose trains because they are Scotland's trains. Because rolling stock allocation is a devloved issue, it's ludicrous to suggest that TS should have to make sacrifices because of DfT's incompetence.)
(Scotland won't lose trains because they are Scotland's trains. Because rolling stock allocation is a devloved issue, it's ludicrous to suggest that TS should have to make sacrifices because of DfT's incompetence.)
Do not forget the Secretary of State has already said that DfT have identified a solution to TPE's loss of the 170s which will likely see more electric stock introduced in the north to release more diesel units. The department is in commercial negotiations and hope to make an announcement in the summer.
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