Toxic bosses

[adc82140]

I'm in a quandry. I have a "toxic boss". It's not my immediate line manager, nor the manager above them. I get on with them both. It's multiple levels up from me.

My job is middle management of an operational team, duties such as rostering, mentoring, liaising with customers.

It's in industry outside the railways.

Of late, this toxic character has become obsessed with money and the bottom line, to the detriment of staff welfare (and more junior managers like me) and our clients.

What strategies can I consider to deal with them? Does anyone have experience with this? My immediate manager and I can sit and put the world to rights for hours, but this obviously doesn't get us anywhere. We need to be more clever.

Any advice or pointers to resources is appreciated.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That sounds like it's a care agency ( please don't confirm or deny if that might blow your cover, so to speak )...

The care agency that covers for my wife had a similar issue, although there was as much an element of incompetence as toxicity with the manager concerned, and I think he wasn't at the elevated level you describe but more just one level up.

In the case of the care agency here, what eventually happened was the other staff all started ignoring anything the incompetent manager said or did and put pressure on those higher up to shunt him into another role where he couldn't do any damage. Not sure if that's a practical method in your case as if he's three levels up from you it sounds like he's right at the top of the company*... are there any anonymous reporting procedures through which you and others can raise concerns about him without giving any details through that system that would identify you just from the details of what effect he's having on you?


*I'm surprised there's three levels above you if you're already at middle management level; I'd expect two levels more at the most - has this person somehow managed to worm his way in and create something for himself, adding a whole extra layer in the process?

 

[adc82140]

The company is quite large, and they love their layers of management. To give an equivalent, if I worked in the railways a similar role to mine would be driver or guard manager. I still occasionally work operationally myself, but spend most of the time in the office. Sadly ignoring isn't an option. They are a micro manager, and given they are many levels above me I should really never hear directly from them, but sadly that's far from the case.

The layer above them would be board level. I have considered blowing this wide open to them, but it would be severely career limiting.

I'm.wondering if a formal grievance would work, but this manager and the head of HR are as thick as thieves....

 

[route101]

My bugbear with managers is they don't say anything to your face if something is wrong or offer advice. Instead they give you awkward looks or mixed signals or worse the cold shoulder.

 

[gg1]

My bugbear with bad managers is they don't say anything to your face if something is wrong or offer advice. Instead they give you awkward looks or mixed signals or worse the cold shoulder.

Fixed that for you.

Good managers don't do that, if there's a problem they raise it with you directly, in private, and in a supportive way. I have had managers who behave as you describe but thankfully not recently.

 

[Sun Chariot]

A wise sage once said: "people don't leave organisations, they leave bad managers".

@adc82140 I recognise the UK jobs market is still brutal and I understand if staying with your current company is far more preferable to seeking employment elsewhere.

Does your line manager know (or can find out?) whether the toxic boss's sharp focus on P&L is part of a wider (or Board) directive, to protect the organisation's cashflow and liquidity? It might be that the toxic boss's behaviours are driven from peers / Board.

Do you or your line manager know anybody whom the toxic boss trusts and listens to? Could that person influence, or mediate, the dialogue with the toxic boss, about the adverse effect of toxic boss's current actions?

 

[RT4038]

A wise sage once said: "people don't leave organisations, they leave bad managers".

@adc82140 I recognise the UK jobs market is still brutal and I understand if staying with your current company is far more preferable to seeking employment elsewhere.

Does your line manager know (or can find out?) whether the toxic boss's sharp focus on P&L is part of a wider (or Board) directive, to protect the organisation's cashflow and liquidity? It might be that the toxic boss's behaviours are driven from peers / Board.

Do you or your line manager know anybody whom the toxic boss trusts and listens to? Could that person influence, or mediate, the dialogue with the toxic boss, about the adverse effect of toxic boss's current actions?

Well quite. Sometimes you have to read the room - is it you going first or that of the manager you don't like?

It is quite possible that there is a necessity to focus on cost cutting, and your line manager and their line manager are not/do not want to grasp the financial situation. 'to the detriment of staff welfare' could easily be a euphemism for cosy practices that are costing more than strictly necessary by work contracts/legal minima? If this manager is contacting you directly it would certainly seem that they don't have much confidence in the intermediate layers - is it micro management or is there other issues which you are unaware of? Whatever, I would make sure the line manager is well aware of these contacts, and where possible refer the 'toxic' boss to them.

Unfortunately micro managers can be quite difficult, as they rob you of your job satisfaction and generally is counter productive as employees stop taking any decisions themselves. This usually ends up with the micro manager collapsing with work overload but not before a load of damage on the way!

Before digging a hole for this manager (because you may well fall in it before them!) perhaps do a deeper analysis into what may be actually happening here and why (and try to look at it completely objectively, even if there may be some adverse reflection on you or your work practices ).

 

[DarloRich]

I am not seeing the toxicity here. I have worked with really horrible people and it was a LOT worse than looking at cashflow! As above:

Does your line manager know (or can find out?) whether the toxic boss's sharp focus on P&L is part of a wider (or Board) directive, to protect the organisation's cashflow and liquidity? It might be that the toxic boss's behaviours are driven from peers / Board.

Those at a lower level often don't have sight of the bigger picture and that can cause lots of frustration.

Obviously a good or just decent manager will help everyone understand the bigger picture but not all can. Not all know to do that!

I would do as per the quote and see if there is something there to find strategy wise.

 

[Iskra]

I am not seeing the toxicity here. I have worked with really horrible people and it was a LOT worse than looking at cashflow! As above:


Those at a lower level often don't have sight of the bigger picture and that can cause lots of frustration.

Obviously a good or just decent manager will help everyone understand the bigger picture but not all can. Not all know to do that!

I would do as per the quote and see if there is something there to find strategy wise.

Agreed, the higher manager is probably under significant pressure about finances and is frustrated at the perceived lack of cost control from those below.

However, I agree that they should follow the chain of command rather than interfere directly.

I would say this is poor management, rather than toxic. I say this as someone currently taking legal action against my former employer, so I recognise toxic!

Initially, you should raise your concerns with your Line Manager, who should do the same with theirs. Have they done that?

 

[adc82140]

To answer a few of the above:

The company as a whole is in rude health. It's just our division that has under performed compared to the rest of them, and that's down to various issues outside our control. We are all trying to be as cost efficient as we can, but the problem is that the cost savings we are being asked to make are putting enormous pressure on the staff. This manager sees them as just a commodity, and has lost touch with the "human" part of "human resources". The fact that we are spaffing thousands up the wall on overpriced office equipment, for example, is lost on them (or possibly not, as they negotiated that contract and won't admit it's less than good value)

The manager concerned has their bonus at stake. That's why they are behaving as they are. I'm big and ugly enough to stand up for myself, but it's the wider team that are having to suffer. That's where I see the injustice.

 

[Yew]

Trying to make a business perform better by turning the screws on people is an approach that rarely leads to long-term success. If it's just a blip, it's a bad sign for how the company works and the management's mindset. If it's a longer downturn, then this won't make it better.

In the case that you do have any ideas on how to streamline operations, removing bottlenecks and non-value-added tasks, it might be worth sharing them. Though it sounds like you might be facing a "Post Turtle", and be liable to be bitten even if you try to help said turtle down from the post it's stuck on.


Other posters will likely have better ideas with how to deal with the situation, but either way, I'd recommend polishing your CV, so you can make a quick exit if you need to.

 

[styles]

This probably isn't the advice you want to hear, but here it goes.

I had a similar scenario, when I worked in a rail consultancy. It was actually my immediate manager, and a few months later when heads changed, his immediate manager also. The managing director ultimately demonstrated toxic characteristics, and there are things he did which I can't say on here without ending up in legal disputes to be quite honest.

The only solution in all honesty was to quit. I only stuck it out for a year or so because it was my first job out of university and I thought it would look better on my CV to stick a job for a year than a month. Within 6 months of me quitting, half the team I worked with had quit also. I'm not some trailblazer or anything, but I think we'd all had enough. That team actually no longer exists any more, and in fact the company was bought out by another rail company. To that end I feel vindicated as it demonstrates that this was a wholly ineffectual "team".

When I moved to my new employer I felt so liberated. We had a 'fail safe' culture, discussed things openly, didn't just routinely blame other people, and worked together to make things better. We produced high quality solutions and our customers were very happy as a result.

I don't know your role, your industry, your personal circumstances, etc; but ultimately I think there is a limit to the culture change you can make in an organisation, especially someone lower down the chain of command, as despite companies portraying themselves as flat hierarchy etc, there are ultimately informal leaders and it's hard to break into that inner circle sometimes.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Other posters will likely have better ideas with how to deal with the situation, but either way, I'd recommend polishing your CV, so you can make a quick exit if you need to.

Quite. Also joining LinkedIn if not already on. Plus joining a relevant professional Institute if you aren’t already and setting out some Continuous Professional Development (CPD) actions for yourself.

Don’t just focus on the ‘internal’ situation.

 

[DM352]

Quite. Also joining LinkedIn if not already on. Plus joining a relevant professional Institute if you aren’t already and setting out some Continuous Professional Development (CPD) actions for yourself.

Don’t just focus on the ‘internal’ situation.

What helped me at one time was part time volunteering in the evening where it helped with project leadership experience plus met some people in similar professional fields.