Towns with Good Bus Services.

[ivanhoe]

Many of the topics on here relate to large urban areas and cities. However, England is full of towns without large urban areas and some have really good services. I live in Loughborough and have reasonable to excellent services both within the town and to the East Midland Cities.

Excellent: Skylink to Leicester(Limited Stop) and Derby. 24 hour operation
Arriva 127/126 Leicester to Shepshed/Coalville. Turn up and go
frequency during the day , hourly after 18.30.

Good: Kinch Loughborough Town Services. Most finish at 18.00 except for 12
and Sprint service to University and number 2 to Leicester via Barrow
and Sileby
Nottingham Flyer . Half hourly during the day with evening services
NCT to Nottingham via South Notts villages.

Reasonable: Hourly service to Melton Mowbray and Grantham (Centrebus). No
evening services or on Sunday. Links the Wold villages as well.
Trent Barton Skylink to Nottingham via Sutton Bennington, Castle
Donnington and Long Eaton.

As you can see, a pretty good array of buses. The downside is the lack of multi operator passes that a PTE could provide if there was one! How do you fare( forgive the pun in other non PTE towns?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Milton Keynes - admittedly difficult to serve, better than it was - but a terribly lackadaisical service by Arriva - dirty buses, hit-and-miss punctuality etc.

So not "good" in that sense.

Good - Edinburgh and Nottingham are the shining lights, aren't they? (I wonder what they have in common? )

 

[gordonthemoron]

I only moved to MK in 2012 and I was surprised that the bus services were actually not bad

 

[Bletchleyite]

I only moved to MK in 2012 and I was surprised that the bus services were actually not bad

Coverage, frequency and price aren't bad (partly because it's one of the few local authorities that has not completely withdrawn subsidy, and the rapid expansion has meant the opportunity for many services to get a typically 5-year kickstart from planning gain). However, operationally, I find it's terrible - a real culture of sloppiness throughout, not to mention the presence of the cowboys[1] on some of the tendered routes.

[1] Who have, admittedly, bucked their ideas up somewhat and are now probably better than Arriva at times!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Milton Keynes - admittedly difficult to serve, better than it was - but a terribly lackadaisical service by Arriva - dirty buses, hit-and-miss punctuality etc.

So not "good" in that sense.

Good - Edinburgh and Nottingham are the shining lights, aren't they? (I wonder what they have in common? )

Good is Brighton - the common factor is more the approach of the local authority rather than some utopian vision of public ownership Note that Brighton is now the highest passenger journeys per head and has overtaken Nottingham (which has declined markedly since 2009)

Note also that Warrington has suffered one of the biggest declines.

I have to say that (IME), there are some very good Stagecoach subsidiaries even in areas that have traditionally not had great services. Gloucester and its environs probably have better commercially viable services than at any other time. Oxford is also rather impressive despite the local authority funding cuts

 

[Hophead]

As you can see, a pretty good array of buses. The downside is the lack of multi operator passes that a PTE could provide if there was one! How do you fare( forgive the pun in other non PTE towns?

No reason why the operators can't provide that without getting a PTE or other authority involved. If it's possible in Haywards Heath (and Burgess Hill as well, as it happens), it should be possible elsewhere, too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good is Brighton - the common factor is more the approach of the local authority rather than some utopian vision of public ownership Note that Brighton is now the highest passenger journeys per head and has overtaken Nottingham (which has declined markedly since 2009)

Note also that Warrington has suffered one of the biggest declines.

Yes, I'd agree with that analysis - it requires a local authority with a view that it's something to do well and be proud of rather than something that just needs doing any-old-how like emptying the bins, pruning trees or something.

I have to say that (IME), there are some very good Stagecoach subsidiaries even in areas that have traditionally not had great services.

I definitely find Stagecoach do the "quality" thing way better than any other big group.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No reason why the operators can't provide that without getting a PTE or other authority involved. If it's possible in Haywards Heath (and Burgess Hill as well, as it happens), it should be possible elsewhere, too.

It can result in legal issues if it's seen as a cartel.

Funny thing is, in my experience public transport is one of those few areas where a cartel *actually* makes sense - a group of operators working together provides more of a passenger benefit, competing against the car, than a couple of bus operators competing over the minority of passengers they already carry.

Perhaps an interesting diversion here - the German Verkehrsverbuende started out as operator cartels, not statutory organisations.

As such I actually think removal of competition regulations applied to local public transport operation would make sense.

 

[ivanhoe]

No reason why the operators can't provide that without getting a PTE or other authority involved. If it's possible in Haywards Heath (and Burgess Hill as well, as it happens), it should be possible elsewhere, too.

Thanks for that. As it happens, I will be seeing my local county councillor for a few drinks in the new year. I'll mention this to him. I suspect that given Loughborough's geographical position on the border of Leicestershire/Nottinghamshire/Derbyshire, I wonder if this is a hindrance?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It can result in legal issues if it's seen as a cartel.

Funny thing is, in my experience public transport is one of those few areas where a cartel *actually* makes sense - a group of operators working together provides more of a passenger benefit, competing against the car, than a couple of bus operators competing over the minority of passengers they already carry.

Perhaps an interesting diversion here - the German Verkehrsverbuende started out as operator cartels, not statutory organisations.

As such I actually think removal of competition regulations applied to local public transport operation would make sense.

The various competition legislation etc can be managed to avoid the cartel accusation. This can be done via an open trade body such as WEBOA - the West of England Bus Operators Association - who have successfully introduced the AvonRider multi operator scheme and the similar local schemes (e.g. North Somerset, Bristol, Bath)

Also, local authorities or third parties can act as a broker in such agreements; I think that Explorer North East (now controlled by Network One) now falls under that aegis, and there's been the South Downs etc. Same with Wiltshire Day Rover.

I do recognise that some operators don't help themselves. However, often the standard of bus provision is shaped by the local authority (in terms of financial support but also how they wish to promote travel and place bus priority ahead of the private car).

 

[SCH117X]

Good is Brighton - the common factor is more the approach of the local authority rather than some utopian vision of public ownership Note that Brighton is now the highest passenger journeys per head and has overtaken Nottingham (which has declined markedly since 2009)

A little matter of the tram in that!

 

[the101]

However, often the standard of bus provision is shaped by the local authority (in terms of financial support but also how they wish to promote travel and place bus priority ahead of the private car).

This is the often-forgotten element of how successful bus services are. It's no coincidence that places like Nottingham, Oxford and Reading (and others) all enjoy good bus priority and a pro-bus attitude from local authorities.

You can buy brand new buses and run them every few minutes 24/7, but if they take an hour to cover three or four miles they are not an attractive proposition. The recent losses in patronage in central London demonstrate this.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A little matter of the tram in that!

There ain't no tram in Brighton - that was more my point

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is the often-forgotten element of how successful bus services are. It's no coincidence that places like Nottingham, Oxford and Reading (and others) all enjoy good bus priority and a pro-bus attitude from local authorities.

You can buy brand new buses and run them every few minutes 24/7, but if they take an hour to cover three or four miles they are not an attractive proposition. The recent losses in patronage in central London demonstrate this.

That's exactly my point. I travel into Bristol and can only hope that Metrobus and associated priority helps to improve that situation. The current spiralling congestion is killing the viability of the network.

Then we have Joe Anderson in Liverpool......

 

[Hophead]

The various competition legislation etc can be managed to avoid the cartel accusation. This can be done via an open trade body such as WEBOA - the West of England Bus Operators Association - who have successfully introduced the AvonRider multi operator scheme and the similar local schemes (e.g. North Somerset, Bristol, Bath)

Also, local authorities or third parties can act as a broker in such agreements; I think that Explorer North East (now controlled by Network One) now falls under that aegis, and there's been the South Downs etc. Same with Wiltshire Day Rover.

Indeed: Brighton & Hove City Council stipulates that contracted services charge B & H Bus Co fares and issue & accept multi-journey tickets. This has, for the past 18 months or so, included Key Cards and m-tickets. Of course, having a dominant operator makes the requirement somewhat simpler.

 

[Robertj21a]

Many of the topics on here relate to large urban areas and cities. However, England is full of towns without large urban areas and some have really good services. I live in Loughborough and have reasonable to excellent services both within the town and to the East Midland Cities.

Excellent: Skylink to Leicester(Limited Stop) and Derby. 24 hour operation
Arriva 127/126 Leicester to Shepshed/Coalville. Turn up and go
frequency during the day , hourly after 18.30.

Good: Kinch Loughborough Town Services. Most finish at 18.00 except for 12
and Sprint service to University and number 2 to Leicester via Barrow
and Sileby
Nottingham Flyer . Half hourly during the day with evening services
NCT to Nottingham via South Notts villages.

Reasonable: Hourly service to Melton Mowbray and Grantham (Centrebus). No
evening services or on Sunday. Links the Wold villages as well.
Trent Barton Skylink to Nottingham via Sutton Bennington, Castle
Donnington and Long Eaton.

As you can see, a pretty good array of buses. The downside is the lack of multi operator passes that a PTE could provide if there was one! How do you fare( forgive the pun in other non PTE towns?

Add in the 154 to Leicester, the 16 to Coalville, the 129 to Ashby and Paul Winson's routes 3 and 13.

 

[graham11]

Blackpool and area seem to have good bus coverage .

Blackpool Transport, Stagecoach and Coastal coaches do quite a good job.


Graham

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Blackpool and area seem to have good bus coverage .

Blackpool Transport, Stagecoach and Coastal coaches do quite a good job.


Graham

....and Catch 22! Oh, hang on...

 

[Phil.]

We have a good bus service here in Penzance. Apart from large conurbations the rough guide to bus services is that the richer the area is the poorer the bus service is.

 

[sk688]

I think Watford has a good service , whenever I go there are always some tfl buses and some Light green turquoise kinda buses .

 

[PeterC]

Round here towns like Aylesbury and Wycombe have decent daytime services six days a week, just don't expect to stay out after 7pm.

 

[Busaholic]

Coverage, frequency and price aren't bad (partly because it's one of the few local authorities that has not completely withdrawn subsidy

I don't think that's quite true (yet!) in that most have some subsidised services, even the ones who've withdrawn all evening and/or Sunday subsidies. I only know of three or four who may have withdrawn all subsidies: sometimes even when an announcement is made, it can get rowed back on as in one recent case.

 

[Busaholic]

I just read that in North Devon Stagecoach were decreasing the frequency of their daytime Bideford to Braunton service from every 10 to 15 minutes, which struck me as still pretty good.

 

[anti-pacer]

My city (Wakefield) has good bus links to other parts of West and South Yorkshire.

Leeds is linked by about 15 buses per hour, and there are main routes that see buses to Castleford, Dewsbury and Pontefract every 10 minutes, along with other more indirect routes to all. Buses also run to Barnsley, Doncaster, Bradford, Huddersfield, and even Holmfirth and as far as Wetherby.

Outside my flat there is a bus stop where I can get buses to Castleford, Doncaster, Knottingley, Leeds, Normanton, Hemsworth, South Elmsall, and several villages in between. Buses pass my flat approx every 3-4 minutes during the day, in each direction.

Another well linked town is Skipton. For a small town it has direct buses to Leeds via Ilkley and Otley; Manchester via Colne, Burnley and Rawtenstall; Preston via Clitheroe; and local buses to Keighley and some of the Dales villages.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The various competition legislation etc can be managed to avoid the cartel accusation. This can be done via an open trade body such as WEBOA - the West of England Bus Operators Association - who have successfully introduced the AvonRider multi operator scheme and the similar local schemes (e.g. North Somerset, Bristol, Bath)

Also, local authorities or third parties can act as a broker in such agreements; I think that Explorer North East (now controlled by Network One) now falls under that aegis, and there's been the South Downs etc. Same with Wiltshire Day Rover.

I do recognise that some operators don't help themselves. However, often the standard of bus provision is shaped by the local authority (in terms of financial support but also how they wish to promote travel and place bus priority ahead of the private car).

Well from the 1st March 2017 the former county of Avon becomes a Combined Authority, the WoECA, a sort of Avon PTE hopefully information on the AvonRider scheme will be a lot eaiser to find considering that the Travelwest website seems to be broken and the printed stuff is hard to obtain.

Heading to West Yorkshire, in Huddersfield we shave a good network which sees buses head to Glossop (in the summer), Wakefield, Holmfirth, Hebden Bridge, Halifax, Manchester, Leeds and Bradford. In the village where I live, we have one route which is every 10 minutes, which is good but more recently I have seen either three turn up at one go or two in the space of seven minutes.

I do have to say that Bradford on Avon and Trowbridge have at least one decent service, the 265 which starts at a reasonable six in the morning and finishes at around ten at night - not bad for an area which is non PTE and has a great day ticket. Where as in neighbouring Westbury sees it up to around 7pm as for Sunday services there is one with four extending to Warminster, still at least its better than nothing.

 

[MCR247]

I think national express do a good job in Birmingham

 

[edwin_m]

There ain't no tram in Brighton - that was more my point

The point is that the expansion of the tram in Nottingham is a possible explanation for why bus use has fallen there but not in Brighton. Both cities are still way ahead of nearly every other local authority in the statistics for bus use per head of population (though the tightly-drawn boundary of Nottingham may skew this somewhat as many bus users will be commuting from outside the city boundary).

Interestingly smaller cities and some counties with no city (the OP's original question) tend to do better in these statistics than the ITA areas. Reading is third behind Brighton but useage has increased significantly, overtaking Tyne and Wear which is now is fourth but the size of its drop since 2009 means it is likely to drop further down the table soon.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/annual-bus-statistics-year-ending-march-2016

 

[ashworth]

Round here towns like Aylesbury and Wycombe have decent daytime services six days a week, just don't expect to stay out after 7pm.

That seems to be the situation these days in many areas outside of large cities. Many quite sizeable market towns have very good bus services during the day but nothing after 7pm. Unfortunately it is becoming no services after 6pm on many routes and no Sunday service.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The point is that the expansion of the tram in Nottingham is a possible explanation for why bus use has fallen there but not in Brighton. Both cities are still way ahead of nearly every other local authority in the statistics for bus use per head of population (though the tightly-drawn boundary of Nottingham may skew this somewhat as many bus users will be commuting from outside the city boundary).

Interestingly smaller cities and some counties with no city (the OP's original question) tend to do better in these statistics than the ITA areas. Reading is third behind Brighton but useage has increased significantly, overtaking Tyne and Wear which is now is fourth but the size of its drop since 2009 means it is likely to drop further down the table soon.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/annual-bus-statistics-year-ending-march-2016

Yes - get all that and I had taken my figures from the same source.

My point was that it was intimated (simplistically but tongue in cheek) that it was municipal ownership (in Nottingham and Lothian) that was the determining factor.

However, that Brighton is in there illustrates that it isn't but something(s) else. A point also backed up by Warrington's position.

 

[higthomas]

That seems to be the situation these days in many areas outside of large cities. Many quite sizeable market towns have very good bus services during the day but nothing after 7pm. Unfortunately it is becoming no services after 6pm on many routes and no Sunday service.

Why is this? I get that there are fewer passengers after seven and on Sundays, but many routes around the country have a service every ten minutes sitting the day that simply ends at around seven, there must surely be passengers after then, is does it have something to do with shifts etc?