Touching in/out on Travelcard

[island]

Am I right in saying that a customer holding a Travelcard on their Oyster card which is valid in all the zones where the customer travels need not touch in or out where there are no ticket gates? Will it generate trouble with an RPI if checked? Does it make a difference whether they are travelling on NR/LU/DLR/etc.?

 

[EM2]

I have had Z1-3 seasons for about three years and have often forgotten to touch in or out at Forest Gate or Wanstead Park (no barriers), and been checked by an RPI with no problems.

 

[yorkie]

Will it generate trouble with an RPI if checked?

They will see you have a valid Travelcard, so I don't see why they would generate trouble!

It's vitally important to touch in/out when using Pay As You Go, as if you do not touch in then you are not making the initial payment for the journey! If you do not touch out then you are not refunded the difference between the maximum fare and the correct fare.

Providing you stick within the Zones of your Travelcard, I see no reason to bother touching in/out, except where required to do so for the purposes of revenue checks (ie, if you need to touch in/out to open a barrier, obviously you must do so. But if the barriers are left open then there is no issue, as anyone with a valid ticket can legitimately walk through whether on paper or Oyster).

 

[LexyBoy]

... unless they have an Oyster Extension Permit set, in which case they must touch in and out on every trip (on NR) until it is cleared.

 

[RJ]

Am I right in saying that a customer holding a Travelcard on their Oyster card which is valid in all the zones where the customer travels need not touch in or out where there are no ticket gates? Will it generate trouble with an RPI if checked? Does it make a difference whether they are travelling on NR/LU/DLR/etc.?

www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14870.aspx

"If you're at a station without gates or the gates are already open you must still touch in and out."

 

[island]

I've seen that, but I am aware that reality and the TFL website regularly differ!

 

[yorkie]

www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14870.aspx

"If you're at a station without gates or the gates are already open you must still touch in and out."

Or else what? You will be fined for... having a valid ticket? I don't think so.

That's worded for simplicity, because they don't want to confuse people. They are hardly going to say "You don't have to touch in/out if the barriers are left open and you have a valid Travelcard for the journey you are making, but have not loaded an OEP" are they? They're just trying to keep it simple and avoid confusing people. They can't threaten people with any action for not touching in/out when they are completely valid, any more than they could threaten someone on a paper ticket.

 

[Mojo]

The TfL Conditions of Carriage says that you must touch in and out, even if the ticket gates are open (6.6.1). However if you are checked by a mobile reader then the flashing green or steady green indication will be given as there is no penalty for travelling with a Travelcard without having touched in (9.2). It is still possible to view the TKTENT (ticket entry) and TKTEXIT (ticket exit) journey history.

This does not apply for buses however, where you must touch in, even if you have a Travelcard, or you will be liable for a penalty fare. We have been warned that this even applies for staff passes!

Note that if you have a negative Pay As You Go balance, even if you have a valid Travelcard, you must top it up in order to make a journey.

 

[Deerfold]

This does not apply for buses however, where you must touch in, even if you have a Travelcard, or you will be liable for a penalty fare. We have been warned that this even applies for staff passes!

I don't think this applies on the steadily reducing number of bendybuses (and 507/521) where you only have to touch in if you're using pay as you go (so long as you have a valid Bus Pass / Travelcard / Staff Pass)

 

[LexyBoy]

www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14870.aspx

"If you're at a station without gates or the gates are already open you must still touch in and out."

But the same page also says:

Why touch in and out?
So we know where your journey started and ended and can charge you the right fare if you're using pay as you go.

Which implies that it's only for PAYG users. I hope we won't see an unannounced enforcement of the compulsory touching in/out rule as it would certainly lead to a lot of penalty fares for incomplete journeys by passengers assuming that a Travelcard was a valid ticket without being validated.

 

[RJ]

Or else what? You will be fined for... having a valid ticket? I don't think so.

That's worded for simplicity, because they don't want to confuse people. They are hardly going to say "You don't have to touch in/out if the barriers are left open and you have a valid Travelcard for the journey you are making, but have not loaded an OEP" are they? They're just trying to keep it simple and avoid confusing people. They can't threaten people with any action for not touching in/out when they are completely valid, any more than they could threaten someone on a paper ticket.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/oyster-conditions-of-carriage-on-national-rail.pdf - Condition 3.5 elucidates on this.


http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-2-January-until-further-notice.pdf Condition 6.6.1 here also.

I'm just answering the OP's question without turning it into a discussion as to how outrageous the system is.

On the buses, Oyster is not valid unless it has been validated on the bus, whether it be a Travelcard, PAYG, staff pass and so on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the same page also says:



Which implies that it's only for PAYG users. I hope we won't see an unannounced enforcement of the compulsory touching in/out rule as it would certainly lead to a lot of penalty fares for incomplete journeys by passengers assuming that a Travelcard was a valid ticket without being validated.

Where does it say you don't need to validate if you're using a Travelcard then?

 

[MikeWh]

Where does it say you don't need to validate if you're using a Travelcard then?

It doesn't, but then the definition of implies is to indicate or suggest without being explicitly stated.

 

[Mojo]

I am of the opinion that it is clear the TfL Conditions of Carriage that you should touch in on LU/NR services, even if you have a Travelcard. This is mentioned right underneath the section header ''Using a season ticket on your Oyster card.'' However, section 9.2 of the TfL conditions does not say a penalty fare or prosecution will be carried out if you are on LU without having touched in, and section 7 of the Oyster conditions of use on National Rail services also does not say a penalty fare or prosecution will be carried out. This is in contradiction to the buses, where the rules allow for a penalty fare for not having touched in.

I suspect the reasoning for this is two-fold:

1. It avoids confusion by just saying everyone has to, because some people will be on PAYG, will be going outside of their Travelcard zones or have an OEP loaded
2. If you have a negative balance you must top up before travelling, and if you don't attempt touch in, you may not realise you have a negative balance

So, de jure, yes, you do have to touch in. De facto (in reality) you do not have to touch in as there is no penalty for not doing so.

 

[londonbridge]

Don't forget the tram! If you are going to Wimbledon the posters tell you when you exit you will be charged a maximum fare if you haven't touched in,even if you have a valid travelcard. However,would you be issued a pf for not touching in with a valid travelcard for a journey that did not involve Wimbledon?

 

[MikeWh]

Don't forget the tram! If you are going to Wimbledon the posters tell you when you exit you will be charged a maximum fare if you haven't touched in,even if you have a valid travelcard. However,would you be issued a pf for not touching in with a valid travelcard for a journey that did not involve Wimbledon?

That's more to do with exiting from a rail station without a corresponding entry than any RP matters. The gates at Wimbledon are specially programmed to let you out if you have a tram board token within the last 70 minutes. You can travel free on trams with a travelcard covering any of zones 3-6 but only a travelcard covering zone 3 will let you out at Wimbledon without moaning about no corresponding touch in. That is too complicated for ordinary people though, so the simplistic message is that you must touch in whatever travelcard you have.

 

[londonbridge]

I understand the Wimbledon situation as we discussed that before,but again what I'm asking is would they try to pf you for not touching in with a valid travelcard if your journey didn't involve Wimbledon? ie you boarded at,say,Ampere Way without touching in and were getting off at Morden Road?

 

[button_boxer]

... unless they have an Oyster Extension Permit set, in which case they must touch in and out on every trip (on NR) until it is cleared.

Isn't that every trip full stop, not just on NR? The point of an OEP is to make the system deduct the entry charge where it wouldn't otherwise think it needed to.

 

[yorkie]

I understand the Wimbledon situation as we discussed that before,but again what I'm asking is would they try to pf you for not touching in with a valid travelcard if your journey didn't involve Wimbledon? ie you boarded at,say,Ampere Way without touching in and were getting off at Morden Road?

If you have (a) valid ticket(s) for your entire journey you cannot be issued a penalty fare.

 

[MikeWh]

Thinking about it a bit more, the reason you have to touch your Oyster card when boarding a bus even if it has a travelcard is to stop everyone just waltzing past the driver without paying. I know bendy buses are a bit different, but on the vast majority of buses the driver gets to see how you've paid whatever. On trams you don't pay the driver so there is no need to show travelcards or touch your Oyster card on the reader, apart from the special case of alighting at Wimbledon.

 

[Deerfold]

That's more to do with exiting from a rail station without a corresponding entry than any RP matters. The gates at Wimbledon are specially programmed to let you out if you have a tram board token within the last 70 minutes. You can travel free on trams with a travelcard covering any of zones 3-6 but only a travelcard covering zone 3 will let you out at Wimbledon without moaning about no corresponding touch in. That is too complicated for ordinary people though, so the simplistic message is that you must touch in whatever travelcard you have.

On bendybuses the signs say you must touch in if you have a PAYG oyster card. Don't remember them mentioning anything else.

 

[swt_passenger]

There is also a practical advantage to them having travelcard holders touch in and out routinely, which is that it allows them to more accurately record station usage data, and divvy up the season ticket income correctly between TfL and the TOCs.

 

[RJ]

It doesn't, but then the definition of implies is to indicate or suggest without being explicitly stated.

There's no need to be flippant, I know what the word imply means. The poster was not helping the OP at all and was only confusing matters. What I said was correct and backed up by the TfL CoC so I don't see why there's any need for conflict? It seems that instead of answer the OP's question with a clear, succint answer, there's a trend where it must be proved that the rules are unfair, illegal etc. open encouragement to breach the rules and see the TOC in court if the rule is enforced. I certainly don't think that's very helpful at all.

There is also a practical advantage to them having travelcard holders touch in and out routinely, which is that it allows them to more accurately record station usage data, and divvy up the season ticket income correctly between TfL and the TOCs.

It's also better for the user if their plans change en route, as if they decide to travel beyond the validity of their TC they'll be charged correctly and not subject to an Exit Charge at the other end.

 

[island]

It's also better for the user if their plans change en route, as if they decide to travel beyond the validity of their TC they'll be charged correctly and not subject to an Exit Charge at the other end.

Or if they're travelling on a TOC service they'll get a PF for not having an OEP set :/

 

[LexyBoy]

There's no need to be flippant, I know what the word imply means. The poster was not helping the OP at all and was only confusing matters. What I said was correct and backed up by the TfL CoC so I don't see why there's any need for conflict? It seems that instead of answer the OP's question with a clear, succint answer, there's a trend where it must be proved that the rules are unfair, illegal etc. open encouragement to breach the rules and see the TOC in court if the rule is enforced. I certainly don't think that's very helpful at all.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. What I was trying to say is that to me (and I expect many people) the wording seems to apply to PAYG users only. I appreciate the CoC requires users to touch in and out even when using a Travelcard, but it's not obvious that this is a requirement from reading most TfL literature (I certainly didn't know this before this thread), and most Travelcard users don't touch in/out if not necessary with no ill effects.

I'm not trying to rally against the rules, merely pointing out that it's not clear that touching in/out with a TC is a requirement (without reading all the T&Cs, which few will realistically do), especially when everything seems to work fine without so doing.

So the answer to the OP's question is basically: The customer is required to touch in and out for every journey. However, they won't have any trouble if they are checked.*

* I'd be interested to hear if anyone has had trouble in this situation. I've certainly been checked on buses having not touched in with no problems - not on LU/NR though.

It's also better for the user if their plans change en route, as if they decide to travel beyond the validity of their TC they'll be charged correctly and not subject to an Exit Charge at the other end.

Wouldn't the charge be the same whether they had an OEP or not? Exiting at a Z6 station with a Z1-3 TC, having not touched in, would result in the correct extension fare being charged would it not? (Sure this is how things used to work anyway).

Having to go to a TVM or (in the case of stations with no Oyster facilities) potentially some distance to an Oyster shop takes away the convenience of the system. Maybe a good solution would be to have Oyster readers (like the pink ones) on all stations (behind the barriers) which could be touched to add an OEP without any hassle.

 

[island]

Wouldn't the charge be the same whether they had an OEP or not? Exiting at a Z6 station with a Z1-3 TC, having not touched in, would result in the correct extension fare being charged would it not? (Sure this is how things used to work anyway).

The charge should be the same, but if a customer encounters a National Rail RPI outside their zones with no OEP set, they're liable to be PFed. There is anecdotal evidence of exit ticket gates being set to reject Oyster cards in such situations leading to customers getting PFed when they seek assistance (despite that the customer would be paying the right fare with no loss to the TOC).

 

[MikeWh]

I've certainly been checked on buses having not touched in with no problems - not on LU/NR though.

I trust you mean bendy buses? You have to touch in as you walk past the driver on normal buses.

The charge should be the same, but if a customer encounters a National Rail RPI outside their zones with no OEP set, they're liable to be PFed. There is anecdotal evidence of exit ticket gates being set to reject Oyster cards in such situations leading to customers getting PFed when they seek assistance (despite that the customer would be paying the right fare with no loss to the TOC).

Interestingly a visitor to my site reports that last weekend they were let through at Charing Cross without an OEP and charged correctly. So it's either not all SET stations or they've realised that by denying passengers who want to pay the correct fare the chance to do so they are setting themselves up to be laughed out of court?

 

[londonbridge]

Note that if you have a negative Pay As You Go balance, even if you have a valid Travelcard, you must top it up in order to make a journey.

Sorry but I don't agree with this one. If you have a negative payg balance and you also have a travelcard valid for the journey you wish to make,then you have a valid ticket,as you are using the travelcard. As long as your journey is wholly within your travelcard zones,to my mind any payg balance on your card is irrelevant.

Several of tfl's policies need to be looked at as again,to my mind,they are unenforceable. For instance,you can lend your Oyster card to someone else to use if it contains payg credit,but not if it contains a travelcard. How can they enforce this? If I had a Oyster travelcard season and I lent it to,say,my brother and he made a journey with it,as long as the journey was carried out correctly how could tfl prove it wasn't his card?

 

[island]

If I had a Oyster travelcard season and I lent it to,say,my brother and he made a journey with it,as long as the journey was carried out correctly how could tfl prove it wasn't his card?

Unless it's a seven-day travelcard, they will presumably do so from the registration details.

 

[MikeWh]

Plus don't you still need a photocard with a season ticket, even if it's on Oyster?

 

[island]

Travelcards on an Oyster card do not require a photocard.