Touch-in problem

[jimbo99]

Two weeks ago, in the pouring rain, I touched in at Barnes station (no barrier) with my contactless credit card. As I did so I was distracted by the weather and my phone that was ringing. I didn't hear a beeb and couldn't see the LCD display. But I thought I got the green light.

On the platform, I wondered if I had indeed "touched in". Not knowing what to do, I though the best thing was to touch again. My reasoning was this: If indeed the touch-in had worked and I touched again, then the second touch would be a touch out. But at least that would "look like" I had made a mistake and my story would make sense. This would be better than not touching in at all.

I wasn't stopped. At East Croydon, the barrier just opened as normal. When I checked online, there was a touch-in/touch-out logged at Barnes - I had indeed touched in. At East Croydon there was a "touch out" without a "touch in", so I was charged a max fare which I later got back. I had travelled ticketless.

During those moments at Barnes station, I rather resented the fact that I was put in this position. I couldn't see any way out of the risk of ticketless travel (unless of course I bought a paper ticket). I can't see from my card if it's been touched in and the top up machines won't tell you. And as I say, if you have touched-in, then by touching again ("to make sure") you touch yourself out.

Any suggestions as to what to do if the same happens again or how this would be handled in practice if indeed I had been stopped?

 

[najaB]

During those moments at Barnes station, I rather resented the fact that I was put in this position. I couldn't see any way out of the risk of ticketless travel (unless of course I bought a paper ticket).

You have your answer. If you want to avoid similar feelings of resentment at being forced into this position, buy a paper ticket. (Or, alternatively, pay attention to what you are doing.)

If you had been stopped the portable readers would have been able to determine that you had touched in so there was no need to be concerned.

 

[blakey1152]

If you're using contactless and have the card registered with TfL the touch in status appears very quickly on your online journey history for that day - Usually within about 15 minutes!

So if you can access that on your phone then you can see if you had touched in or not.

Blakey

 

[yorkie]

Did you contact the Oyster helpline to get the fare adjusted?

 

[jimbo99]

Thanks for the answers.

You have your answer. If you want to avoid similar feelings of resentment at being forced into this position, buy a paper ticket. (Or, alternatively, pay attention to what you are doing.)

True. But it is unfortunate that with contactless you can be in the position of not knowing whether you have a ticket or not. It is easy to get into a confused state if your getting old, in a group, there's no barrier etc and the penalties for "messing up" can be serious. Readers which display recent activity would be handy (a bit like the Oyster ones at underground stations). Also I was already capped for the day - so really wanted to use contactless.

If you had been stopped the portable readers would have been able to determine that you had touched in so there was no need to be concerned.

Yep. But presumably by touching a second time, I was counted as touching out, so the reader would show I was ticketless? That was my concern.

If you're using contactless and have the card registered with TfL the touch in status appears very quickly on your online journey history for that day - Usually within about 15 minutes!

So if you can access that on your phone then you can see if you had touched in or not.

Yep, I looked on my phone. Nothing was showing. I assumed it didn't update so quickly as my previous journey was also not showing. But it sounds like I was unlucky. Actually an app that tells you your "status" would be great, though I suppose some devices might not be online (bus readers?).

Did you contact the Oyster helpline to get the fare adjusted?

Thanks, I did it online. I "corrected" the touch-in, touch-out sequence. But it wouldn't let me correct the "touch out" at ECR without the "touch in", saying I had reached a correction limit. So I sent a message and they corrected it a day or so later. I've found TfL good when I've had to contact them.

 

[MikeWh]

If you had been stopped the portable readers would have been able to determine that you had touched in so there was no need to be concerned.

No they wouldn't.

 

[najaB]

No they wouldn't.

I'm pretty sure I've seen it posted on the forum that with CPC the hand-held readers are able to determine the last touch in/out but no more than that. What is the actual situation?

Edit: Found an earlier post by yourself that clarifies the position. While I was wrong about them being able to see where the card was used, it is still the case that the OP wouldn't have been in any bother as they had a valid CPC and the two touches could be reconciled if they were overcharged.

 

[jimbo99]

Ah that does answer my concerns. So if I had been checked, simply having a valid contactless card would have been enough to satisfy the inspector. On exiting ECR (had I not touched in) I would have had a maximum fare which could have been corrected on request.

As per the other thread: What stops people never tapping in or out if they are travelling between stations without barriers is that though their possession of a valid contactless card will get them past an inspection, later they will get a max fare when the data is reconciled. If it happens 3 times, then the card is blacklisted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In this way, contactless rather than Oyster seems the way to go if you are a bit OCD about these things and fear you haven't tapped when you have. I've never minded the exposure to maximum fare thing which can be corrected later. It's the risk of having to pay a penalty fare or prosecution that I've feared.

 

[yorkie]

Ah that does answer my concerns. So if I had been checked, simply having a valid contactless card would have been enough to satisfy the inspector.

Yes. In many ways using Contactless is safer than using Oyster.

As per the other thread: What stops people never tapping in or out if they are travelling between stations without barriers is that though their possession of a valid contactless card will get them past an inspection, later they will get a max fare when the data is reconciled. If it happens 3 times, then the card is blacklisted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You appear to have answered your own question. I'd imagine if someone was regularly doing this they would be further investigated too.

In this way, contactless rather than Oyster seems the way to go if you are a bit OCD about these things and fear you haven't tapped when you have. I've never minded the exposure to maximum fare thing which can be corrected later. It's the risk of having to pay a penalty fare or prosecution that I've feared.

Agreed.

 

[MikeWh]

Back from Wembley now so I can answer more comprehensively.

Ah that does answer my concerns. So if I had been checked, simply having a valid contactless card would have been enough to satisfy the inspector.

Correct.

On exiting ECR (had I not touched in) I would have had a maximum fare which could have been corrected on request.

Yes. However, had there been a revenue check you might have needed a plausible story. Touching again as you did would have made that much more believable so you may well have helped yourself there. I'd hope that more leeway is given to stations with validators, but the onus is still on the passenger to make sure that they have touched in properly.

As per the other thread: What stops people never tapping in or out if they are travelling between stations without barriers is that though their possession of a valid contactless card will get them past an inspection, later they will get a max fare when the data is reconciled. If it happens 3 times, then the card is blacklisted. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are right. This is why they may be reluctant to just complete a journey where a revenue check took place before the unmatched touch out.

In this way, contactless rather than Oyster seems the way to go if you are a bit OCD about these things and fear you haven't tapped when you have. I've never minded the exposure to maximum fare thing which can be corrected later. It's the risk of having to pay a penalty fare or prosecution that I've feared.

Contactless has the major advantage that confrontation is removed from the revenue check. Additional consequences are decided later on.

 

[jimbo99]

Yes. However, had there been a revenue check you might have needed a plausible story. Touching again as you did would have made that much more believable so you may well have helped yourself there.

I don't understand this bit. When you say "revenue check" do you mean an inspector scanning the contactless card? Why would I need a plausible story if he can't see from the card that I haven't touched the pad (or touched it twice)?

 

[najaB]

I don't understand this bit. When you say "revenue check" do you mean an inspector scanning the contactless card? Why would I need a plausible story if he can't see from the card that I haven't touched the pad (or touched it twice)?

I don't want to put words in MikeWh's mouth, but I think he means that a double touch-in will cause less hassle at the reconciliation stage than no touch-in.

 

[MikeWh]

I don't understand this bit. When you say "revenue check" do you mean an inspector scanning the contactless card? Why would I need a plausible story if he can't see from the card that I haven't touched the pad (or touched it twice)?

You don't need a story at the time of the revenue check, but if you want to ask TfL to complete the journey afterwards they may require more clarity in what happened. Any other touches that can backup where you say you were might help. Eg, if you touched out at Canary Wharf LU and forgot to touch in at the DLR station before being checked at Greenwich, they will be happier to resolve that journey than one where you just out of the blue say you got on at a station. Regularly using particular stations also helps.

One of the reasons for the reticence is that the TOCs were not exactly happy that potential fare dodgers would "get away" with a maximum fare with contactless. If it's just an incomplete journey on its own they will usually take your word for it, unless you habitually need journeys resolving. If the resolution is going to cancel a revenue check they need to be more careful.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't want to put words in MikeWh's mouth, but I think he means that a double touch-in will cause less hassle at the reconciliation stage than no touch-in.

Very succinctly put.

 

[ag51ruk]

In the Netherlands, the OV chip card readers allow you to re-touch at the same reader within 100 seconds if you are not sure about whether you touched in properly - i know this isn't a contactless card, but do any contactless readers in the UK have something similar? It should be technically possible for the reader where you touched in to record cards that were used in the last few minutes and display an "already touched in" message if relevant. As the DfT seem to want to ultimately phase out paper tickets completely, this sort of dilemma will become more common for passengers.

From the NS website in the Netherlands:

Did I check in or didn't I?

There is a 100-second delay between checking in- and out at the same card reader. So if you are not sure that you have checked in or out successfully, you can check to make sure by holding your card against the same card reader again within 100 seconds.

 

[jimbo99]

Thanks all, especially MikeWh for the lengthy replies.

On the 100 second thing, I thought this would be great too. But it would have to be widely known about - else some people who genuinely need to touch out after a touch in might not realise that their touch out won't count. It wouldn't have helped me - it was probably a couple of minutes before it had occurred to me the touch might not have worked.

The only answer I can see is to have a publicly accessible reader which could tell you your recent touch history. But it would need everything to be hooked up and online. At the very least, the local station should have the information as to whether you've touched or not.

 

[Mojo]

In the Netherlands, the OV chip card readers allow you to re-touch at the same reader within 100 seconds if you are not sure about whether you touched in properly - i know this isn't a contactless card, but do any contactless readers in the UK have something similar?

You have highlighted the reason - because this is about CPCs and not Oyster. With regards to Oyster, on a ticket gate you will get an error if you attempt to touch in twice (and staff can manually allow you access), on a standalone reader for a period of a few minutes it will copy what you last did. This has caused me problems in the past where I am trying to touch out and touch straight back in again.

 

[anme]

The Dutch card readers in stations are much clearer than the ones in London. They have a bright ~5 inch display and show much more information, including whether a touch is a check in or out, discount and/or season ticket applied, amount being charged, class of travel, etc.

You can see an example of the reader here: http://www.amsterdamtips.com/photos/ns-ov-chipkaart-reader.jpg (I can't find a picture showing the info shown when a card is touched)

I guess this could be done for Oyster, but not for contactless cards where the information is not actually stored on the card.

EDIT: just to add, the Dutch readers would be an improvement even for contactless, as the information is displayed so much more clearly. There's a very clear 'beep', I think an LED turns green, and the display shows the card has been read (or that there's an error). You can't really miss what's happening, unlike the TfL readers which beep indistinctly and might or might not display a message on a low contrast 1980's-style LCD.

 

[MikeWh]

Ah, the 100 second thing. It is similar here on validators, even for contactless. It's either 90 seconds or 120. If you left it longer than 120 seconds then it definitely wouldn't have repeated the action. The problem with contactless is that validators have no way of knowing whether you are going in or out, so they can only say card accepted. Oyster will tell you whether it's an entry or exit.

 

[Be3G]

Two weeks ago, in the pouring rain, I touched in at Barnes station (no barrier) with my contactless credit card. As I did so I was distracted by the weather and my phone that was ringing. I didn't hear a beeb and couldn't see the LCD display. But I thought I got the green light.

If you want to avoid similar feelings of resentment at being forced into this position, buy a paper ticket. (Or, alternatively, pay attention to what you are doing.)

This may not have been a case of the OP paying too little attention – as documented in this thread, it seems that it can be a bit hit-and-miss whether readers beep and/or show a green light when using contactless. As Oyster was so reliable in this regard, not getting the full set of responses from TfL's equipment (a green light, a beep, and a message on a screen if applicable) can immediately sow doubt in one's mind over whether one has made an error or not.

 

[najaB]

This may not have been a case of the OP paying too little attention...

Maybe not, but as quoted in the original post there was a ringing phone providing distraction at the same time.

 

[GarethJohn]

In the Netherlands, the OV chip card readers allow you to re-touch at the same reader within 100 seconds if you are not sure about whether you touched in properly - i know this isn't a contactless card, but do any contactless readers in the UK have something similar? It should be technically possible for the reader where you touched in to record cards that were used in the last few minutes and display an "already touched in" message if relevant. As the DfT seem to want to ultimately phase out paper tickets completely, this sort of dilemma will become more common for passengers.

From the NS website in the Netherlands:

Did I check in or didn't I?

There is a 100-second delay between checking in- and out at the same card reader. So if you are not sure that you have checked in or out successfully, you can check to make sure by holding your card against the same card reader again within 100 seconds.

And when I wasn't sure If I had touched out when I exited at the Airport, the reply was it's OK don't worry. I wasn't chased by revenue inspectors treating me like a criminal, hounded for £100's of pounds for my mistake or treated with contempt for getting on the wrong train.