Tornado tested at 100 mph overnight

[70014IronDuke]

The Mk2s apparently used on the test are of monocoque construction and I believe Tornado will in future often be hauling a rake of Mk3s which also have disc brakes and WSP. Either of the above can stop within the standards for braking distances even when hauled by something as heavy and badly-braked as a class 40.

Class 40s badly braked? I thought they had quite a decent brake force ratin.

 

[notverydeep]

Getting off-topic, but some Mk1s also ran on B4 bogies and some of those ran in WCML 110mph formations. However Modern Railways commented at the time that Mk2s couldn't be cleared above 100mph for an unknown reason.

Continuing this slightly off topic tangent (sorry), the Mark 1 NHA full brakes were needed in WCML 110 formations, as prior to the DVTs no Mark 3 vehicles existed with the luggage / postal capacity required. Mark 2s were not required in the 110 mph WCML sets formations as all the other vehicle types required existed as Mark 3s, so presumably no project to apply the appropriate additional maintenance was ever implemented.

At the time 110 mph timings were introduced only the three Mark 3B brake vehicles were in service: 17173 - 5. These are now with FGW on the West of England sleeper trains. They are effectively loco hauled first class equivalents of an HST's TGS with a guard's office and only a small luggage compartment. Does anyone know what type of brake vehicle Tornado's set will include? There, back on topic - phew!

 

[edwin_m]

Class 40s badly braked? I thought they had quite a decent brake force ratin.

I was thinking of a few things I've read on forums, plus this:

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=444

A Class 40 diesel locomotive, whilst running under clear signals on the falling gradients between Cowlairs and Queen Street Station, ran out of control and entered the station at a speed of between 40 and 45 mile/h, where it collided violently with the rear of the 04.22 passenger train from Mossend to Queen Street, 1T02, formed of coaches worked as part of the 21.50, 'The Royal Highlander', from Euston to Mossend, which was stationary in No. 5 Platform awaiting the attachment of the locomotive to form the 06.00 train from Queen Street to Mallaig. The locomotive embedded itself in the rearmost vehicle, a sleeping car, which was extensively damaged. All five coaches remained upright, however, as did the two class 27 locomotives which had been detached from the train on its arrival at Queen Street; no other lines were obstructed. The collision occurred as a direct result of the failure of the locomotive's brakes to control its speed as it Descended the 1 in 45 gradient through Queen Street Tunnel.

Reading the full report, it may be more a matter of poor maintenance of the brakes rather than them being inadequate if properly maintained.

 

[CosherB]

Two 442s in push/pull mode?

The Mk3 plan was widely publicised about six months ago ..... :roll:

https://www.a1steam.com/2016/10/?cat=7

The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust announced at its Annual Convention on Saturday 1st October that it would be building a state-of-the-art charter train. The train is to be constructed from locomotive hauled Mk3 carriages currently in use in East Anglia which will be extensively refurbished and overhauled for their new role.

The yet-to-be named new train will set new standards in a railtour market long dominated by difficult to maintain 60 years or older vehicles. As with all modern trains, it will be equipped with air conditioning, central door locking, controlled emission toilets, power at seat and persons with restricted mobility facilities. The passenger vehicles will also all be fitted with opening windows so those travelling can still experience the sound of Tornado working hard more clearly should they wish to do so and consideration is being given to equipping them with Wi-Fi. Although the final formation of the train is yet to be determined, it will include kitchen car(s) to enable high quality meals to be delivered to 250 First Class Dining passengers, a new support coach which will provide accommodation for the support crew and the locomotive’s day-to-day spares and consumables and a service vehicle with generator and staff accommodation. The train will also carry sufficient additional water to extend Tornado’s range to around 200 miles. The refurbished train is expected to enter service towards the end of 2019.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2016/10/05/refurbished-mk-3s-for-tornado

A dedicated train of Mk 3s cascaded from East Anglia is planned for ‘A1’ steam locomotive 60163 Tornado. The train is expected to enter service towards the end of 2019.

The locomotive’s owning body, the A1 Steam Locomotive Trust, also says that it will undertake test runs in 2017 to pave the way for 90mph operation on selected routes, with the full support of operator DB Cargo.

The Trust says the Mk 3s will be extensively refurbished and fitted with Controlled Emission Toilets, at-seat power sockets, and that configuration is being given to equipping them with WiFi.

Although the final configuration of the train is yet to be decided, it will include kitchen vehicles to provide meals for up to 250 First Class dining passengers, a new support coach, and a service vehicle with generator and staff accommodation. The train will also carry sufficient water to extend the steam locomotive’s range to around 200 miles.

My hunch would be that the support vehicles are converted from redundant Mk3 sleeper stock from Scotland, rather than using (and wasting in my opinion) the ex-GA carriages.

 

[MarkyT]

Two 442s in push/pull mode?

I believe they're all committed to the new First/MTR South Western franchise now.

The Mk3 plan was widely publicised about six months ago . . . My hunch would be that the support vehicles are converted from redundant Mk3 sleeper stock from Scotland, rather than using (and wasting in my opinion) the ex-GA carriages.

Quite! Good thinking about sleepers vs saloons for service and support vehicles. Compartments, with some bunks retained for staff and volunteers will be a more useful layout to convert and if they want a good view en route they can go sit in a saloon in the public part of the train!

 

[DarloRich]

i think some posters need to calm down - this test wont bring about higher speed steam running and certainly not for the list of historic locos suggested by a poster some time ago.

Tornado is a special case being a touch newer than most steam locomotives and trusted more not to conk on the main line.

 

[2HAP]

This test was all about allowing Tornado to run at 90mph. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if those involved in operating other large locomotives on the main line are not keeping at least a weather eye on this. Successful 90mph running by Tornado could well lead to others deciding to apply for permission to do so. This is very much going to be on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Spamcan81]

This test was all about allowing Tornado to run at 90mph. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if those involved in operating other large locomotives on the main line are not keeping at least a weather eye on this. Successful 90mph running by Tornado could well lead to others deciding to apply for permission to do so. This is very much going to be on a case-by-case basis.

IIRC the Clan Line guys had expressed an interested in higher speed running. That was some time ago so no idea if it's still an aspiration of theirs.

 

[theageofthetra]

The Mk3 plan was widely publicised about six months ago ..... :roll:

https://www.a1steam.com/2016/10/?cat=7



http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2016/10/05/refurbished-mk-3s-for-tornado



My hunch would be that the support vehicles are converted from redundant Mk3 sleeper stock from Scotland, rather than using (and wasting in my opinion) the ex-GA carriages.

Having Aircon is vital to tapping into the Asian tour group market- it is seen very much as a status and class divider and many will not travel without it. Every steam rail tour I did (and not at a hot time of year) in Japan had aircon coaches. Any information on how it will be powered?- I presume by the diesel at the back? Japanese tours tended to have a gen car or a gen unit under the coach but their much larger loading gauge allowed for greater options of course.

 

[alexl92]

Having Aircon is vital to tapping into the Asian tour group market (...) Any information on how it will be powered?- I presume by the diesel at the back?

The A1 trust's original press release suggested a service vehicle carrying a generator - presumably another converted sleeper car?

Although the final formation of the train is yet to be determined, it will include kitchen car(s) to enable high quality meals to be delivered to 250 First Class Dining passengers, a new support coach which will provide accommodation for the support crew and the locomotive’s day-to-day spares and consumables and a service vehicle with generator and staff accommodation.

 

[Deepgreen]

No, but it would exponentially increase the chances of armchair train "expert" types having an accident in their Y fronts, as they waffle on about it!

Blue Peter - it went hydraulic during the slip- - water in the cylinders. That's what did the damage.

Skimming through the above, no one has picked up on the equally significant purpose of this test. It's no surprise that an enhanced A1 can run at 90, and touch 100. More important, was if the brake force available would be adequate for modern day requirements. (NB Tornado has a different brake configuration to the original locos).

That will depend largely on the rolling stock, though. Tornado will not be doing anything like 100mph running light.

 

[MarkyT]

That will depend largely on the rolling stock, though. Tornado will not be doing anything like 100mph running light.

Due to brake force considerations, all light locomotive movements are limited to 60MPH maximum, and that also applies to short formations with only a small number of braked trailers (4 vehicles or fewer ISTR).

 

[edwin_m]

Due to brake force considerations, all light locomotive movements are limited to 60MPH maximum, and that also applies to short formations with only a small number of braked trailers (4 vehicles or fewer ISTR).

Does this apply to recent loco designs? Sure I read somewhere that class 67s can run light at 100mph, at least when on Thunderbird duties.

Not sure if this is a grandfather rights issue, in which case Tornado being a new loco presumably wouldn't qualify and would have to get a derogation if it wasn't possible to meet the current requirement.

 

[D1009]

Due to brake force considerations, all light locomotive movements are limited to 60MPH maximum, and that also applies to short formations with only a small number of braked trailers (4 vehicles or fewer ISTR).

As per the attached, light engine max speed is 75 mph on lines where the maximum speed is 90 mph or above, or 60 mph where it is 85 mph or less.

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERM8000-traindriver Iss 2.pdf

 

[Deepgreen]

The Mk3 plan was widely publicised about six months ago ..... :roll:

https://www.a1steam.com/2016/10/?cat=7



http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2016/10/05/refurbished-mk-3s-for-tornado



My hunch would be that the support vehicles are converted from redundant Mk3 sleeper stock from Scotland, rather than using (and wasting in my opinion) the ex-GA carriages.

Indeed - it was a light-hearted comment.

 

[MarkyT]

As per the attached, light engine max speed is 75 mph on lines where the maximum speed is 90 mph or above, or 60 mph where it is 85 mph or less.

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERM8000-traindriver Iss 2.pdf

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Deepgreen]

Due to brake force considerations, all light locomotive movements are limited to 60MPH maximum, and that also applies to short formations with only a small number of braked trailers (4 vehicles or fewer ISTR).

Possibly so (although I had thought that 75mph light movements were allowed in some circumstances) ; in any case, a full rake of coaches (say, a minimum of ten) will not rely on the loco's braking to the extent that high speed is a problem. Unless, of course, all this is being done to allow four coach high speed steam workings, which would seem to be pointless.

 

[D1009]

The A1 trust's original press release suggested a service vehicle carrying a generator - presumably another converted sleeper car?

The service vehicle doesn't need to be a Mk 3.

 

[edwin_m]

At least one of the Mk3 generator cars for the Night Stock is still kicking around somewhere I think. And if that's not obtainable and restorable at least the design is there to convert another sleeper.

 

[LWB]

I think the OP's understanding of locomotive braking systems is on a part with his exhibited competence in maths and punctuation.

Grammar is important too. That would be 'on a par with'.