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TOPS renumbering process

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Taunton

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As an aside, I think if BR had wanted to keep the old loco numbers with D & E prefixes I doubt it would have been a problem handling that in TOPS as such.


The only time US railroads seem to renumber locos is after mergers (eventually, because the merged railroad can continue to use the old reporting marks) and sometimes when new or rebuilt locos arrive (to free up a large contiguous block for the new stuff). For example UP has many renumbered ex-C&NW, DRGW, MP, MKT, SP, SSW, WP etc. locos still in their fleet.
Interesting comment :) . BR had however done away with the D prefix before TOPS, almost as soon as the last steam loco was withdrawn. TOPS in the USA needed to handle letters in the loco numbers, as a few there had A or B suffixes.

US railroads had varying reasons to keep older numbers and reporting marks. Southern Pacific bought the SSW (always called the Cotton Belt everywhere, although officially the St Louis South Western) in the early 1930s, but for a legal reason had to keep it and its assets as a separate theoretical identity right into the 1990s. Every batch of new SP locos right until then had about 10% of them marked as SSW and numbered in a quite separate series, even though they were wholly treated as a pool and you were as likely to find 10% of the locos and freight cars on the system in California were marked Cotton Belt as on that onetime system's old route. The SP TOPS implementation had to handle all that.
 
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Clarence Yard

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The dots in the tops number definitely existed, I clearly remember seeing 83.011 in the paint shop at Doncaster, it had numbers on all 4 cabsides and the dot was actually a tiny square rather than a circle. It was a massive shock to the system of a 12 year old spotter. The other 83s and 84s in the works all had their new numbers chalked on with the dots but after very few were painted the dots disappeared and a space appeared in their place

I saw 86202 chalked up as 86.502 (the original intention for the 86/1 fleet) in Crewe Works in late autumn 1972 too. 86201/3 had been outshopped by then.
 

theblackwatch

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The dots in the tops number definitely existed, I clearly remember seeing 83.011 in the paint shop at Doncaster, it had numbers on all 4 cabsides and the dot was actually a tiny square rather than a circle. It was a massive shock to the system of a 12 year old spotter. The other 83s and 84s in the works all had their new numbers chalked on with the dots but after very few were painted the dots disappeared and a space appeared in their place
I'd love to find a pic of a loco with the dot in place.

Who would have thought a full stop between two numbers would cause so much discussion. :lol:
 

Pit_buzzer

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I'd love to find a pic of a loco with the dot in place.

Who would have thought a full stop between two numbers would cause so much discussion. :lol:
I've found a picture of 83.011 on ebay. Not sure if its possible to link to it but search "83011 class 83" on ebay and it's the 2nd picture down. The dot is clearly visible if you zoom in
 

Clarence Yard

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Brilliant - I couldn’t recall it so dismissed it but I must have seen it - time does dim the memory, unfortunately!

There was an earlier query raised about the earlier 31/4 conversions. They were shopped as part of the normal shopping cycle so CM&EE York would have liaised with BREL as to the programme and given them the numbers, probably all overseen by the CM&EE BRB.

The DME KX would have been given some idea of the locos because the 1971/2 dates in the DME KX shopping book refer to the mod on individual 34G allocated locos going for classified overhaul before those locos were actually called to works. Most were done on DB conversion and a couple were transferred to 34G from other depots directly after that overhaul and modification.

The ER official stock alteration sheets (issued by the ROM at York) were not great for ETH mod dates at that time but on looking at them, I notice that renumberings were officially referred to as xx.xxx until late January 1974,
when the dot was dropped from the sheet entries.
[/QUOTE]
 

Magdalia

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Brilliant - I couldn’t recall it so dismissed it but I must have seen it - time does dim the memory, unfortunately!

There was an earlier query raised about the earlier 31/4 conversions. They were shopped as part of the normal shopping cycle so CM&EE York would have liaised with BREL as to the programme and given them the numbers, probably all overseen by the CM&EE BRB.

The DME KX would have been given some idea of the locos because the 1971/2 dates in the DME KX shopping book refer to the mod on individual 34G allocated locos going for classified overhaul before those locos were actually called to works. Most were done on DB conversion and a couple were transferred to 34G from other depots directly after that overhaul and modification.

The ER official stock alteration sheets (issued by the ROM at York) were not great for ETH mod dates at that time but on looking at them, I notice that renumberings were officially referred to as xx.xxx until late January 1974,
when the dot was dropped from the sheet entries.
Thanks for this, very illuminating.

The dual braking dates can be used as a proxy for the ETH modification dates in most cases.

I've found a better close-up photo on Flickr:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/deltic_baggie/8355233632
And also thanks for this. Hopefully other pictures will emerge too.
 

Taunton

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The dual braking dates can be used as a proxy for the ETH modification dates in most cases.
Also, on the Western, dual braking mods in the 1970s would often go with changeover from GWR ATC to BR AWS.
 

70014IronDuke

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At the time there seemed little logic to where they were done, and it seemed to vary with time and class.
Initially it seemed to just be a works-only thing, but later it was done on-shed, sometimes quite primitively.

There was a logic, only it varied between types of class. Initially it was being done on works overhauls (or when new). From a starting date in late September-early October 1973 the BRB initiated a full-scale renumbering project organised via the regional CM&EE offices.

I can't speak for other regions, but on the LMR the exceptions were the WCML electric locos, which were done on Crewe works - I may have known why at the time, but forget today. I suspect it was because of the metal cabside numbers - they didn't want those being ripped off at sheds.

...
Locomotive renumbering started in late 1971 with 76050, but TOPS numbers were only applied to electric locomotives until 45101 in March 1973. Most repaints of diesel locomotives on works visits continued to use the old numbers until autumn 1973, and at start of 1974 it was still quite rare to see a TOPS numbered diesel locomotive.
It depens where you were, perhaps, but I can assure you that there were plenty of LMR locos renumbered by New Year 1974. We had mostly finished things off by February 74 on the LMR.

Most diesel locomotives were renumbered at depots in the first half of 1974, usually by painting out the old numbers and then adding stencils of the new numbers on top. With depot renumberings it was usually possible on close examination to make out the old number underneath the paint.

AS I mentioned above, the whole operation got going late Sept-early October 73. I know, because I was in charge of it on the LMR! It was my first 'real job' opon graduation. I don't know for sure about the other regions, but as it was a BRB order, they can't have been far behind, and some may have been ahead.

By mid-October, I was visiting depots instructing teams on what was needed to be done.
Absolutely not. The renumbering process was strictly controlled by the CM&EE BRB - the Regions worked under their instructions and in those days you followed BRB orders, to the number in this case!

I can confirm this - at least as far as the renumbering exercise went. It was most precisely specified - although there might have been some local oddities, eg with the in-cab numbering, especially if a depot ran out of the little numerals. ISTR one or two WR 47/4s by 1975 had the numbers painted on in the cabs.

Funny story. As mentioned, I had to go out to all the LMR depots to instruct the local lads on what needed to be done. (Usually one trip was enough to each depot, but I did three teams at Toton, one for each shift.)

Frankly, it felt a bit embarassing, as there was me, this 21-year old just out of uni supposedly telling 40-50-60 year olds how to paint over the old numbers, clean up the side of a loco, stick on the numerals, paint over the lot and then remove the paper covering on each numeral. I mean, it wasn't actually very high tech!

So I did my best to not appear to be a blerk, and explained that I was very sure they could do it themselves without me, but that I'd been instructed to come out to each depot for this. I also added that there were, in fact, a number of 'simple' things that they had to get right. For example, the vast majority of the numerals were 6" in height, but those for 08s were only 5", because the shunters did not have enough space for the 6" ones.

Since I had allocated the numerals to each depot based on their loco allocations, it was important not to use 5" numerals on anything other than 08s, or they would find themselves short (and some big shot might notice the smaller numbers on other locos and everyone would get a rocket.)

But the biggest pitfall I nearly learned the hard way.

I guess it was early November or so when I went to Longsight. Of course, I'd arranged it with the depot manager that I'd be coming, and he lined up a team of two for the session. He had a Class 25 stopped on a D or E exam, so that was selected as the one to do. (We didn't want a loco stopped just for renumbering.)

Now the BRB had sent out booklets with all the loco numbers in columns - old number on the left, new number on the right. We had reproduced these at CMEE HQ, but only half size, IIRC.

Whatever, the shift foreman (I suppose it was) would tell the teams - renumber (say) 5247 today lads - and the team had to look up 5247 and look across to the right for the new number. Let's say it was to become 25 197.

Of course, on this instructional run, I did this - showing the team what I was doing, of course - and the way it went was I renumbered one side, and then the team did the other side. (Only one number was applied to each side, not under both cabs - I suppose to save costs.)

When we did this, a most important step was to report the job done to the shift foreman, who in turn then had to inform control of the change in number.

Of course, with the second side done, I explained this to the team, and we went into the foreman's office where I would tell him 'job done - 52xx is now 25 yyy'.

At this point, my guardian angel, or perhaps it was the spirit of Sir William Stanier, whispered into my lug 'ol: "Before you inform control, you should just check you've got it right."

I say my guardian angel, because I'm sure I never did this on earlier depot trips. I mean, it's not exactly difficult to read one number and go across to the next column, is it?

Ha! So you'd think. The trouble was that on some pages the columns had got somewhat out of register - something I'd not noticed before. It was thus VERY easy to scan across and get the wrong new number - out by a single digit.

And one of those pages was the Cl 25s.

Sure enough, 5247 was not to become 25 197, but - if you looked carefully - 25 196. *

Oh no. There was I, the instructor for all this, putting the wrong number on the loco. What to do?

For a nano second, it flashed across my mind that maybe I could slink out of the office and renumber the loco again myself. But at nano-second plus 1, I realised I was bound to be noticed, and by next morning half the region would know this smart-arsed blerk from Derby had messed up - ha ha ha!

So I just fessed up there and then, saying something like: "Well, would you believe it? This fellah comes all the way from Derby to show how to do it and gets it wrong! Look at these columns - it's easily done - we need to re-do it."

And with that, nobody said a thing. But of course, I had to send a note out to all the depots to warn them of this easily made slip.

As far as I know, no loco went out with the incorrect number on the LMR, but it could easily have been different - and we might have had two locos with the same number out on the tracks at the same time - although presumably control would have noticed that immediately the second loco was reported as renumbered - but who knows?

Whatever, sometime in late February - early March my boss came to me to say the BRB bod responsible in London had sent congratulations that the job was complete and seemed well done. :)

* These are not the real numbers. I don't remember which locomotive was the actual one involved.
 
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Western Sunset

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There was a logic, only it varied between types of class. Initially it was being done on works overhauls (or when new). From a starting date in late September-early October 1973 the BRB initiated a full-scale renumbering project organised via the regional CM&EE offices.

I can't speak for other regions, but on the LMR the exceptions were the WCML electric locos, which were done on Crewe works - I may have known why at the time, but forget today. I suspect it was because of the metal cabside numbers - they didn't want those being ripped off at sheds.


It depens where you were, perhaps, but I can assure you that there were plenty of LMR locos renumbered by New Year 1974. We had mostly finished things off by February 74 on the LMR.



AS I mentioned above, the whole operation got going late Sept-early October 73. I know, because I was in charge of it on the LMR! It was my first 'real job' opon graduation. I don't know for sure about the other regions, but as it was a BRB order, they can't have been far behind, and some may have been ahead.

By mid-October, I was visiting depots instructing teams on what was needed to be done.


I can confirm this - at least as far as the renumbering exercise went. It was most precisely specified - although there might have been some local oddities, eg with the in-cab numbering, especially if a depot ran out of the little numerals. ISTR one or two WR 47/4s by 1975 had the numbers painted on in the cabs.

Funny story. As mentioned, I had to go out to all the LMR depots to instruct the local lads on what needed to be done. (Usually one trip was enough to each depot, but I did three teams at Toton, one for each shift.)

Frankly, it felt a bit embarassing, as there was me, this 21-year old just out of uni supposedly telling 40-50-60 year olds how to paint over the old numbers, clean up the side of a loco, stick on the numerals, paint over the lot and then remove the paper covering on each numeral. I mean, it wasn't actually very high tech!

So I did my best to not appear to be a blerk, and explained that I was very sure they could do it themselves without me, but that I'd been instructed to come out to each depot for this. I also added that there were, in fact, there were a number of 'simple' things that they had to get right. For example, the vast majority of the numerals were 6" in height, but those for 08s were only 5", because the shunters did not have enough space for the 6" ones.

Since I had allocated the numerals to each depot based on their loco allocations, it was important not to use 5" numerals on anything other than 08s, or they would find themselves short (and some big shot might notice the smaller numbers on other locos and everyone would get a rocket.)

But the biggest pitfall I nearly learned the hard way.

I guess it was early-November or so when I went to Longsight. Of course, I'd arranged it with the depot manager that I'd be coming, and he lined up a team of two for the session. He had a Class 25 stopped on a D or E exam, so that was selected as the one to do. (We didn't want a loco stopped just for renumbering, of course.)

Now the BRB had sent out booklets with all the loco numbers in columns - old number on the left, new number on the right. We had reproduced these at CMEE HQ, but only half size, IIRC.

Whatever, the shift foreman (I suppose it was) would tell the teams - renumber (say) 5247 today lads - and the team had to look up 5247 and look across to the right for the new number. Let's say it was to become 25 197.

Of course, on this instructional run, I did this - showing the team what I was doing, of course - and the way it went was I renumbered one side, and then the team did the other side. (Only one number was applied to each side, not under both cabs - I suppose to save costs.)

When we did this, a most important step was to report the job done to the shift foreman, who in turn then had to inform control of the change in number.

Of course, with the second side done, I explained this to the team, and we went into the foreman's office where I would tell him 'job done - 52xx is now 25 yyy'.

At this point, my guardian angel, or perhaps it was the spirit of Sir William Stanier, whispered into my lug 'ol: "Before you inform control, you should just check you've got it right."

I say my guardian angel, because I'm sure I never did this on earlier depot trips. I mean, it's not exactly difficult to read one number and go across to the next column, is it?

Ha! So you'd think. The trouble was that on some pages the columns had got somewhat out of register - something I'd not noticed before. It was thus VERY easy to scan across and get the wrong new number - out by a single digit.

And one of those pages was the Cl 25s.

Sure enough, 5247 was not to become 25 197, but - if you looked carefully - 25 196. *

Oh no. There was I, the instructor for all this, putting the wrong number on the loco. What to do?

For a nano second, it flashed across my mind that maybe I could slink out of the office and renumber the loco again myself. But at nano-second plus 1, I realised I was bound to be noticed, and by next morning half the region would know this smart-arsed blerk from Derby had messed up - ha ha ha!

So I just fessed up there and then, saying something like: "Well, would you believe it? This fellah come all the way from Derby to show how to do it and gets it wrong! Look at these columns - it's easily done - we need to re-do it."

And with that, nobody said a thing. But of course, I had to send a note out to all the depots to warn them of this easily made slip.

As far as I know, no loco went out with the incorrect number on the LMR, but it could easily have been different - and we might have had two locos with the same number out on the tracks at the same time - although presumably control would have noticed that immediately the second loco was reported as renumbered - but who knows?

Whatever, sometime in late February - early March my boss came to me to say the BRB bod responsible in London had sent congratulations that the job was complete and seemed well done. :)

* These are not the real numbers. I don't remember which locomotive was the actual one involved.
Really interesting stuff from the horse's mouth... Was there a specific dimension for the space between the 2-digit class number and the 3-digit individual loco number?
 

70014IronDuke

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Really interesting stuff from the horse's mouth... Was there a specific dimension for the space between the 2-digit class number and the 3-digit individual loco number?
Yes. But don't ask me what they were 50 years later! (There were two, one for 6" and one for 5" numerals.)
 

Western Sunset

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Just had a thought. Were classes that had been stored at Bury (eg, 83/84) renumbered earlier than the diesels, hence some may have got the dot?
I did once visit a Dr Zobel at the RTC, who was into paint coverings, and he gave me some BR spec sheets about numberings, but like 70014, I can't remember if it showed how wide the space was.
 

70014IronDuke

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Just had a thought. Were classes that had been stored at Bury (eg, 83/84) renumbered earlier than the diesels, hence some may have got the dot?
I did once visit a Dr Zobel at the RTC, who was into paint coverings, and he gave me some BR spec sheets about numberings, but like 70014, I can't remember if it showed how wide the space was.
I remember there was a space specified - I just can't remember what it was.

But having just opened a beer, it came to me that it might have been the same as a 'half' numeral width. I don't think we ever measured it in strict millimetres, though it would have been specified as such, I'm sure.
 

Helvellyn

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Anything on the Double Arrow site with all the archived manuals about spacing? Wondering if some appendix pages were produced for TOPS renumbering.
 

Western Sunset

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Anything on the Double Arrow site with all the archived manuals about spacing? Wondering if some appendix pages were produced for TOPS renumbering.
Do you have the web address for that site, please?

EDIT Don't worry, I've found it...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Having looked at said manual, it appears that the space is approx one third that of a number; I say approx as the width of numbers varied.
 
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Davester50

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I'm glad I asked this, what seemed to me at the time a bit of a mundane question, but the tales from the past have been fascinating, so thanks to everyone for chipping in.
 

theblackwatch

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Fascinating recollections here. Many thanks to those involved back in the 70s for their input.
 

6Gman

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Well B.R. had built half a million wagons by 1970 and there were still plenty of pre-Nationalisation ones about. I spent a short period as a wagon distributor in Control obviously before TOPS and can say from experience that one benefit of it was to considerably reduce the wagon fleet. Consider a flow of limestone to a steelworks (basic oxygen steel manufacture). On the old system each morning the customer would order locally how many wagons he required for loading. To make sure that he was never unable to provide the required number of wagons the supervisor at the local yard would always have some undeclared empty hoppers sitting around. When he requested empty wagons (on an arcane form that no-one really understood - column b minus column a what's that all about???>) to replace those sent for loading the distributor would request the next yard along in the transit to provide the required number of wagons. But that yardmaster, similarly, always kept wagons 'up his sleeve' to avoid being short. And so it went on back to the steelworks, where the wagons actually unloaded were probably under-declared. So each location probably carried 50% more empty wagons than they really required. And when, in my commute into work, I passed yards and sidings full of empty wagons, but each location would only declare penny numbers to me that afternoon.
This is very true. I recall a training module which included a case example from the shipping industry where "if a ship needs a crew of twelve, the captain will want fourteen, and the cook will buy food for sixteen!"

TOPS was part of a general move across industry from "just in case" to "just in time".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Could it have been anything to do with the fact that the pre-TOPS system, as with most numbering systems, started at 1, rather than 0? Offhand I can only think of one loco numbered 0: an industrial steam loco, possibly at a Midlands colliery.
I seem to recall an article in the Industrial Railway Record years ago discussing locos numbered 0 and I think there were a few.
 

Magdalia

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It depens where you were, perhaps, but I can assure you that there were plenty of LMR locos renumbered by New Year 1974. We had mostly finished things off by February 74 on the LMR.
I think you are right there. My experience was more on the ER and WR than LMR, and the latter was mostly the Midland Main Line, where the Peaks distorted the picture.

Here in the Fens the first diesel locomotives renumbered at Doncaster Works were in October 1973. I have access to records of a frequent visitor to March Depot and he recorded that renumbering on depot started there in the last week of January 1974.
 

norbitonflyer

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Yet coaching stock on TOPS COULD be 000 e.g. the prototype HST power cars when redefined/renumbered as MU coaches
and when re-defined as class 43 locomotives, 43000 became the only locomotive with a number ending 000

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Westerns never carried them because of the cast number plates (and they were on the way out).
Hymeks had cast numbers too - individual digits rather than a single plate.

The excuse of cast plates is also why ex GWR steam locomotives kept their numbers on nationalisation - therefore requiring renumbering of the much larger ex-LMS fleet. Never quite understood that - scrapping 7,712 brass numberplates (two per locomotive) would have been a nice little earner.
 
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Clarence Yard

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43000 had been withdrawn long before that date and renumbered into the departmental coaching stock series, as had 43001.
 

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Were HST power cars (originally numbered as coaching stock) ever regarded as locomotives, or did they just become class 43s by default because their first two digits were 43? If so, anyone got a date when they became regarded officially as locomotives?
 

Sultan1056

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This thread has been an interesting read especially from those who experienced the renumbering project first hand. My experience of the renumbering process was from a completely different view. The first renumbered loco that I saw was in July 73 when 45101 rolled into York. At the time I was aged 10 and had only purchased my Ian Allan diesel locomotive spotting book a week earlier. I searched through the book several times to find this number but frustratingly to no avail. After a few weeks following several conversations with other spotters I now understood the concept of the re numbering process, but it didn’t help me identify the old identity of 45101. I don’t recall seeing many more renumbered locos until late 73; one was 45006 which I was able to identify (89 IIRC) because of its name, however I was bewildered as to how the new numbers were allocated. When the Deltics started to get renumbered I realised that for certain classes of loco the renumbering process was quite straightforward. It wasn’t until early 74 when mass renumberings started to take place. In a lot of cases is was possible to read the old number which had only been painted over. I remember it was quite difficult to read the old numbers on class 08 because the new numbers were directly fixed over the old number. Living in York I noticed that by March 74 most locomotives had been renumbered with the exception of Deltics 9000 and 9004 which had evaded the process. Perhaps it was that the Scottish Region were a little further behind in their process.
The final unrenumbered loco I remember seeing (with the exception of class 45s) was class 47, 1585 in August 1974. This had been allocated the number 47022, however a decision must have been taken not to renumber it until its call to Crewe for conversion to 47542.

That takes me onto the question, with the exception of class 45s, what was the last locomotive to be renumbered? I am assuming it could be a shunter that was out based from its main allocated depot.
 

Clarence Yard

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Were HST power cars (originally numbered as coaching stock) ever regarded as locomotives, or did they just become class 43s by default because their first two digits were 43? If so, anyone got a date when they became regarded officially as locomotives?

It was a decision taken by Intercity not long after they took over the whole fleet from CM&EE BRB/Regional responsibility, iirc. Mid 1988 strikes a bell.
 

43096

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43000 had been withdrawn long before that date and renumbered into the departmental coaching stock series, as had 43001.
When 41001 was re-approved for movement on the mainline in March 2012 it was registered as 43000, in Class 43/9.
 

Western Sunset

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Thanks CY.
So if, say, the TGS trailers had been numbered in the 43xxx series and the power cars in the 44xxx series, might they have become class 44s rather than 43s?
 

randyrippley

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Thanks CY.
So if, say, the TGS trailers had been numbered in the 43xxx series and the power cars in the 44xxx series, might they have become class 44s rather than 43s?
Probably not as there were class 44 Peaks still around, although in preservation.

"The rules" apparently allowed duplication of loco and carriage numbers, but not reuse of loco class numbers where the class was still extant
 
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