Top Ten Overcrowded Services

[bluenoxid]

My biggest concern is the time that it has taken to publish the data. I am going to chase the DfT. Any questions that anyone wants to add?

 

[Failed Unit]

My biggest concern is the time that it has taken to publish the data. I am going to chase the DfT. Any questions that anyone wants to add?

When are the November 2012 figures going to be published

I wonder how many of them are resolved for example the no. unit is now a 3 car so it may have dropped out of the top 10 altogether now. Seems a little odd as you say publishing such old news. In particular when the Dec 2012 timetable increased capacity on many routes.

 

[asylumxl]

Regarding people mentioning FCC, I have to say that overcrowding on TL has certainly been reduced in recent times. I wouldn't say this is down to the 12 carriage trains, but rather a better use of stock such as longer formations in shoulder peaks. I remember a time when I'd never get a seat on my morning peak train. Nowadays there's pretty much always one available.

 

[Failed Unit]

Some overcrowing is self produced, but to be honest I am not sure what the TOCs can do about it. Normally on IC routes for the first trains before the peak and after.

A couple of examples on Scotrail.
Services arriving before 0800 into Edinburgh and Glasgow have lots of space on them but are full fare peak services, if they provided a "shoulder peak" fare it may reduce the loadings a little.

Likewise the 0915 Edinburgh - Glasgow is extremely overcrowded and is only 3 car, whereas the 6 coach train before it (the last peak service) isn't really that full.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

The list in full (bracketed figure is rounded % over full capacity):

0744 Henley-on-Thames-Paddington (80%)
0732 Woking-Waterloo (64%)
1813 Euston-Birmingham New St (62%)
1648 Euston-Birmingham New St (60%)
0630 Banbury-Paddington (58%)
0755 Stourbidge Jn-Stratford-upon-Avon 57%)
0623 Manchester Airport-Middlesbrough (55%)
1817 Liverpool St-Shenfield (54%)
0714 Alton-Waterloo (52%)
1746 Euston-Birmingham New St (52%)

It would be interesting to see at what points of the journey these trains are at their most overcrowded. I have worked trains from Kidderminster & Stourbridge in the morning peak and they are absolutely rammed by the time they reach Rowley Regis despite there being a train every ten minutes and every one being (I think?) at least four coaches in length, often longer.
People absolutely pour out of them at Snow Hill though. Three quarters of the train seem to get out at Snow Hill, and most of the people remaining on it are out at Moor Street. I'm not at all surprised to see the 07:55 SBJ - SAV on that list, but I would imagine it is fairly lightly loaded, for a peak service at least, by the time it has left Birmingham Moor Street.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

But if the section over which they are overcrowded is short then surely it's acceptable. For example there are TPE trains which are rammed out of Leeds, but have empty seats from Huddersfield. Can the industry justify extra units to relieve such short-distance overcrowding?

TPE trains are always chokka between Hudderdfield and Leeds while local stoppers are often half empty. Maybe we need a fare structure which discourages short distance passengers from using long distance trains?

 

[12CSVT]

FCC services towards Brighton in the evening peak are nearly always completely wedged in the front 3 or 4 coaches by the time they leave Blackfriars or London Bridge, irrespective of how many coaches they have. Sometimes the rear coaches are half empty. No doubt 200+ people are competing to be first off when they get to East Croydon.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I can assure you that is a phenomenon not unique to FCC. Just walk along the length of any train at a terminal station and see how full the coaches are nearest the stop blocks compared to the ones furthest away. People just pile into the first door they see.
The same is true the other way too. I've lost count of the times where I have seen people prepared to stand in a crowded coach for up to an hour so they can save thirty seconds at the barrier when they get to London. Even if the rear coach still has entire table seats available people will still stand by the doors in the front coach while still 50 miles from the capital. As they say up north, there's nowt as queer as folk.

 

[Flamingo]

I can assure you that is a phenomenon not unique to FCC. Just walk along the length of any train at a terminal station and see how full the coaches are nearest the stop blocks compared to the ones furthest away. People just pile into the first door they see.
The same is true the other way too. I've lost count of the times where I have seen people prepared to stand in a crowded coach for up to an hour so they can save thirty seconds at the barrier when they get to London. Even if the rear coach still has entire table seats available people will still stand by the doors in the front coach while still 50 miles from the capital. As they say up north, there's nowt as queer as folk.

I see this daily on the Reading - Paddington line, make daily announcements of how many empty seats there are and where they are to deaf ears, and then have to listen to the same people whinging that the trains are overcrowded, which is why they are forced to stand in 1st class ( which by coincidence is closest to where they wish to be getting off the train)

 

[Cherry_Picker]

It's weird isnt it? Surely if you travel every day then you should know when you are five minutes from your destination. That might be the time to walk to the front of the train from your comfy seat near the rear instead of standing the whole way and getting annoyed about it.
I'm not saying you can do this on every train, lots of them are definitely full and standing throughout, but there genuinely are thousands of seats a day going to waste because people choose to stand in an overcrowded coach for the reasons listed above.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I can assure you that is a phenomenon not unique to FCC. Just walk along the length of any train at a terminal station and see how full the coaches are nearest the stop blocks compared to the ones furthest away. People just pile into the first door they see.
The same is true the other way too. I've lost count of the times where I have seen people prepared to stand in a crowded coach for up to an hour so they can save thirty seconds at the barrier when they get to London. Even if the rear coach still has entire table seats available people will still stand by the doors in the front coach while still 50 miles from the capital. As they say up north, there's nowt as queer as folk.

I agree. I've seen the same thing numerous times on services around London. One end of the train (usually the 'London' end packed out while the other end is half empty. Besides the reasons you mention I think some of it is down to people arriving at the station just before the train leaves so they don't have time to board anywhere other than near to the platform entrance. It's one reason why I suspect that in at least some cases, adding additional carriages is not going to be as useful as NR and the Government claim.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's a fair bit of presenting myth as fast (such as the figures all being based on capacity being 135% of seating)- I'd suggest reading the DfT publication on the matter.

Only two of the top ten have a standing allowance factored into their "capacity", as explained on pages 3 and 4 of the report

I suspect that allowance for standing capacity is potentially quite a fudge that makes the overcrowding figures misleadingly low. According to those stats, the most overcrowded train is at 180% capacity. Yet I've often been on services where there have obviously been far more people standing than sitting - which if you measure capacity by numbers of seats, would mean those trains are carrying well over 200% of capacity. The catch... those are with rolling stock that has been deliberately designed with relatively few seats so that many people are forced to stand even below what I'd imagine is their notional capacity.

Personally I feel it'd be more meaningful to measure overcrowding by number of passengers against number of seats, not against notional capacity. (Using seats for overcrowding statistics would hopefully also discourage the - in my view, odious - practice of deliberately designing train interiors with fewer seats.)

 

[craigwilson]

I can assure you that is a phenomenon not unique to FCC. Just walk along the length of any train at a terminal station and see how full the coaches are nearest the stop blocks compared to the ones furthest away. People just pile into the first door they see.
The same is true the other way too. I've lost count of the times where I have seen people prepared to stand in a crowded coach for up to an hour so they can save thirty seconds at the barrier when they get to London. Even if the rear coach still has entire table seats available people will still stand by the doors in the front coach while still 50 miles from the capital. As they say up north, there's nowt as queer as folk.

On the occasions where I have to go into London in the morning peak, I make a point of getting on the rear coach for precisely that reason....when the hordes get on further down the line, I'll almost certainly be in the least packed-out coach.

Maybe it's because I don't commute into London - I'm generally going at that time of the morning for a specific reason, I leave enough time that I don't have to have planned my exit strategy from the station with military precision.

That said, on my regular commute, I do try and be in the right end of the train for the exit - but that's a journey of one/two stops from where I board depending on calling pattern, so quite different.

 

[AeroSpace]

Being at the front of a thousand people pouring out of the train into the Underground saves a lot more than thirty seconds.

 

[jopsuk]

from time to time the train I sometimes get glides out of Cambridge ahead of the 0745 to Kings Cross, which was formerly a resident of this list until it was extended to 12 carriages. My observation is that the front unit is least busy- it is though really a rather long way from the station entrace. The rear unit, though it loses quite a few passengers at Cambridge, comes in packed to the gills with commuters that boarded from Kings Lynn to Waterbeach, and sweeps up all the last-minute-dashers. As the train is formed of 365s, there's no way for passengers to move units once the doors lock.

 

[158801]

Hopefully the EMUs for TPE will see a big increase in capacity (bear in mind that this service would have had a four coach 158 a few years ago before the service was "improved" to three coach 185s!).

The 350's that TPE are getting for the West Coast are 4 coaches - each measuring 20 metres - compared to the 3 x 23 metre coaches for the 185's.

So a 80 metre train - rather than a 69 metre train. Then take away the extra toilet and add extra first class seats.

NET result - a 4 car 350 and 20 more Std Class seats than a 185 !

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I agree. I've seen the same thing numerous times on services around London. One end of the train (usually the 'London' end packed out while the other end is half empty. Besides the reasons you mention I think some of it is down to people arriving at the station just before the train leaves so they don't have time to board anywhere other than near to the platform entrance. It's one reason why I suspect that in at least some cases, adding additional carriages is not going to be as useful as NR and the Government claim.

That is certainly part of the reason, but speaking as a driver who is generally in the cab at least ten minutes before departure I can tell you that there are always plenty of people who are already on board the train before I walk past it. London terminals tend to have a fairly large group of people who arrive 15-20 minutes before the train is due out and will board it as soon as it is posted as being ready. That group of people will also fill the nearest carriage to the buffers first too. It makes sense in a way because the train is empty when they are getting on but it does mean that the train will be unevenly loaded when the last minute runners arrive.

 

[Failed Unit]

The 350's that TPE are getting for the West Coast are 4 coaches - each measuring 20 metres - compared to the 3 x 23 metre coaches for the 185's.

So a 80 metre train - rather than a 69 metre train. Then take away the extra toilet and add extra first class seats.

NET result - a 4 car 350 and 20 more Std Class seats than a 185 !

De-Ja vu, the 185s were not a large improvements on seats compared to the 2 car 158. Saying that on the Scotland - Manchester route the 4 car Voyagers that used to be on the route were not well known for lots of seats. Hopefully we will see some 8 coach formations with a corridor connection so the trolley can serve both sets!

 

[northwichcat]

Too late if you ask me - the worst overcrowding is about 30 mins earlier, and everyone crams onto the 1755 anyway.

I agree it needs to be 15 minutes earlier but it does at least mean the following Manchester service isn't heaving.

 

[tbtc]

The 350's that TPE are getting for the West Coast are 4 coaches - each measuring 20 metres - compared to the 3 x 23 metre coaches for the 185's.

So a 80 metre train - rather than a 69 metre train. Then take away the extra toilet and add extra first class seats.

NET result - a 4 car 350 and 20 more Std Class seats than a 185 !

The 350s are going on the West Coast routes - nobody knows what will be on the Leeds route that features on the overcrowding list - and the 350s are only a "stop gap" (and will move to LM once longer distance EMUs arrive) - my understanding is that the Scottish TPE services are going to be upgraded to hourly which will spread the burden better.