Top expresses from 1978 compared to today

[Envy123]

Golden age of railways? You are kidding.

It's devolving into a shambolic mess, where journey times are being manipulated in the name of punctually and performance and timetables now have more padding than a comfy chair.

With extortionate fares, an over complex fare structure, too many managers and less and less staff on the ground and a system over burdened with legal bureaucracy & general bureaucratic clap trap, which stops any sort of sensible service development.

Well, coming from Moscow, UK railways seems like the Holy Grail in comparison.

The rolling stock is being upgraded at a snail's pace and connections to Moscow from other nearby towns and cities by rail are abysmal at best. If you want to commute from your "dacha" (country house) to Moscow, prepare for some really long traffic jams. Even the Moscow version of Chelsea is poorly connected, because "everyone drives, who needs rail?".

Yes, UK railways have their inefficiencies but if I were to choose between paying less and having abysmal connections to other places by rail and paying more and having much better connections, I'd probably choose the latter.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm 100% with you there guys. My goodness the 70s/80s had the odd highlight such as HSTs & WCML electrification extensions but on the whole it was a sad depressing time for the railways. I'm unsure why with record investment & the announcement of even more new trains this week that there is such hostility to praising the network today.

Wasn't the ECML electrified in the 1980's ? not to mention Bed-Pan (morphing into Thameslink), both of which included much new rolling stock.

Rather better than the first twenty or so years of privatisation, which managed to electrify Crewe-Stoke, and that was about it.

People seem to have short memories when it comes to how long it's taken to get privatisation working.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Wasn't the ECML electrified in the 1980's ? not to mention Bed-Pan (morphing into Thameslink), both of which included much new rolling stock.

Rather better than the first twenty or so years of privatisation, which managed to electrify Crewe-Stoke, and that was about it.

People seem to have short memories when it comes to how long it's taken to get privatisation working.

Yes WCML Weaver-Glasgow 1970-1974. BedPan finished circa 1981 IIRC and ECML 1984-1991. The others were in the 1980s to Norwich and Kings Lynn and Bournemouth to Weymouth plus a but round Portsmouth

 

[Phil.]

Yep. Voith hydraulic (Torque/fluid) drive.

Ah! So the Western never did get rid of the hydraulics - well only for a short time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whereas it was all much better under BR, no doubt...

That would be the BR that instituted the system by which long-distance trains travelling from Watford into Euston somehow needed 10 minutes more to cover the same distance than trains coming the other way.

It was called "recovery time". Every railway to a greater or lesser degree uses it.

 

[Busaholic]

Golden age of railways? You are kidding.

It's devolving into a shambolic mess, where journey times are being manipulated in the name of punctually and performance and timetables now have more padding than a comfy chair.

With extortionate fares, an over complex fare structure, too many managers and less and less staff on the ground and a system over burdened with legal bureaucracy & general bureaucratic clap trap, which stops any sort of sensible service development.

As a general summary, hear! hear!

 

[krus_aragon]

It was called "recovery time". Every railway to a greater or lesser degree uses it.

If the 1980s timetable for SimSig's Euston simulation is anything to go by, everything bar local services had about an hour's turnaround time. I'd describe an extra 10 minutes on the way in as pathing time.

 

[6Gman]

If fares are "extortionate" why do I see so many passengers?

 

[30907]

If the 1980s timetable for SimSig's Euston simulation is anything to go by, everything bar local services had about an hour's turnaround time. I'd describe an extra 10 minutes on the way in as pathing time.

Sorry no. Pathing time meant, then as now, additional time added to avoid a path conflict. Recovery time was supposed to allow for engineering work (10 minutes covered a diversion via Northampton - chunks of 5min were more typical) and was applied in different ways, more for InterCity trains than others. And the pros and cons had been debated (by the likes of C J Allen) since they first appeared in the late 50s.

Differing public and working arrivals were a later invention BTW.

 

[D1009]

Just a slight correction, the last hydraulic in revenue service finished in February 1977. I'm hoping for some sort of commemoration of the event next February.

Ah! So the Western never did get rid of the hydraulics - well only for a short time.

My post was referring to locomotives. I'm sure there were some earlier DMU's around in the 1970s and 1980s with hydraulic transmission, were they the class 115s working out of Marylebone?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

My post was referring to locomotives. I'm sure there were some earlier DMU's around in the 1970s and 1980s with hydraulic transmission, were they the class 115s working out of Marylebone?

I think you're thinking of the class 127s on the BedPan Line?

 

[dk1]

Wasn't the ECML electrified in the 1980's ? not to mention Bed-Pan (morphing into Thameslink), both of which included much new rolling stock.

Rather better than the first twenty or so years of privatisation, which managed to electrify Crewe-Stoke, and that was about it.

People seem to have short memories when it comes to how long it's taken to get privatisation working.

Electrification I agree was off the agenda until recently but so much has happened, so many new fleets & what a ramp up in train frequency especially those red/silver bullets firing up & down the WCML. The best is yet to come from what I can see.

 

[yorksrob]

Electrification I agree was off the agenda until recently but so much has happened, so many new fleets & what a ramp up in train frequency especially those red/silver bullets firing up & down the WCML. The best is yet to come from what I can see.

Electrification (and reopenings - don't forget that under BR, Oxford - Bicester was reopened as a railway. The privatised railway in England gave us guided busways at Leigh and St Ives)

The current railway is doing very well, and is to be congratulated. But don't do that by denying all of the improvements, including electrification, reopenings and construction of lots of new rolling stock during the 80's and early 90's. I found this to be a very forward thinking and positive time for the railway.

 

[dk1]

Electrification (and reopenings - don't forget that under BR, Oxford - Bicester was reopened as a railway. The privatised railway in England gave us guided busways at Leigh and St Ives)

The current railway is doing very well, and is to be congratulated. But don't do that by denying all of the improvements, including electrification, reopenings and construction of lots of new rolling stock during the 80's and early 90's. I found this to be a very forward thinking and positive time for the railway.

Quite agree to an extent, but I will not deny how good things are now. Not quite sure what chokes people to say that. We are on the same side at least.

 

[yorksrob]

Quite agree to an extent, but I will not deny how good things are now. Not quite sure what chokes people to say that. We are on the same side at least.

The current railway is doing well generally, but the lack of re-openings in England has been a big disappointment. That chokes me.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

And of course the Channel Tunnel in the 1980s/1990s was an outstanding piece of investment for railways .

 

[dk1]

The current railway is doing well generally, but the lack of re-openings in England has been a big disappointment. That chokes me.

Makes me slightly envious of Wales & positively green when it comes to Scotland.

 

[notadriver]

Slight change of topic but can anyone remember what the ride was like on top expresses of the 70s and 80s at 90-100 mph compared with that same speed on say an Electrostar or Desiro of today ?

Thinking about 3rd rail land im seem to recall the slam door stock were very lively at 90 mph.

 

[yorksrob]

And of course the Channel Tunnel in the 1980s/1990s was an outstanding piece of investment for railways .

Not to mention all the investment in the classic lines around Kent at the time (although we lost Dover Marine and ultimately Folkestone Harbour, although those were superceeded by the chunnel)

 

[Ash Bridge]

Slight change of topic but can anyone remember what the ride was like on top expresses of the 70s and 80s at 90-100 mph compared with that same speed on say an Electrostar or Desiro of today ?

Thinking about 3rd rail land im seem to recall the slam door stock were very lively at 90 mph.

My experiences of 3rd rail expresses are somewhat limited, but I do remember being impressed by a return journey on a 4REP from Bournemouth to Eastleigh back in the seventies both in terms of ride, seating and performance, would admit to spending quite a lot of the time watching the speedometer through the internal window of an intermediate driving cab with the needle pointing well into the nineties whilst on the New Forest stretch of the route, the buffet counter area on those units was very nice also.

 

[D1009]

Slight change of topic but can anyone remember what the ride was like on top expresses of the 70s and 80s at 90-100 mph compared with that same speed on say an Electrostar or Desiro of today ?

Thinking about 3rd rail land im seem to recall the slam door stock were very lively at 90 mph.

I well remember the lively riding on the 4CEPs on the boat trains between Folkestone and Tonbridge, in marked contrast to what the same passengers experienced on the other side of the Channel.

 

[Steveman]

Slight change of topic but can anyone remember what the ride was like on top expresses of the 70s and 80s at 90-100 mph compared with that same speed on say an Electrostar or Desiro of today ?

Thinking about 3rd rail land im seem to recall the slam door stock were very lively at 90 mph.

The ride was fine in general especially on the ECML.

 

[ac6000cw]

Slight change of topic but can anyone remember what the ride was like on top expresses of the 70s and 80s at 90-100 mph compared with that same speed on say an Electrostar or Desiro of today ?

Thinking about 3rd rail land im seem to recall the slam door stock were very lively at 90 mph.

Since you can't compare them back to back (as all of the Mk1 and Mk2 based stock has been retired - charters excepted) it's hard, but a rough guide:

Mk1 DMUs - bouncy on jointed track, unstable on CWR (bogie hunting was commonplace), so not good.

Mk1 loco-hauled with B1 bogies - better than the DMU's, but basically the same problems. They were restricted to 90mph for that reason (and they were pretty lively at that speed - rock and roll time!)

Mk1 with Commonwealth bogies - much better. These were cleared for 100mph use.

Mk2 loco-hauled - good (they were all fitted with B4 or B5 bogies). Some Mk1 stock was re-bogied with B4/B5 in later years.

(All the above had tread brakes, so were quite noisy when braking).

EMU stock tended to be fitted with whatever was the preferred loco-hauled bogie at the time of build - e.g. I think CEPs used the B1, the VEPs the B4 (were BIG/CIG Commonwealth bogied?)

Mk3/HST - probably the best riding stock we've ever had.

At this point in time 'IC' and EMU/DMU bogie designs started to diverge - the idea was produce cheaper, lower-maintenance bogies with acceptable ride for shorter distance travel. in fact the designs gave quite good ride quality up to 100mph e.g. the class 442 trailer cars ride on nominally 'suburban' bogies.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My impression of modern EMU/DMU stock is that the ride quality is generally very good - certainly good enough that I don't really notice it/remark on it.

By 1978, most loco-hauled stock on the mainlines radiating out of London was Mk2/Mk3/HST (so good ride quality). What we now call 'Cross-Country' was a mixture of Mk1 and Mk2, so it was a bit variable in quality.

 

[RepTCTC]

SW to Bournemouth
1978
1630 Waterloo-Bournemouth arrive 1810 (Southampton C)
2016
1635 Waterloo-Bournemouth arrive 1824 (Woking, Winchester, So'ton Airport, So'ton C, Brockenhurst)
9 mins slower with 4 more stops

I lack a timetable to back it up, but I'm pretty sure the Reps used to do Bournemouth - Brockenhurst - Southampton Central - Southampton Airport Pointless - Waterloo in an hour forty back in the 80s. I remember being decidedly disappointed that despite their zippy appearance, the Pigs ended up running to a virtually identical timetable with the exception of the inexplicable "Royal Wessex" (Southampton - Winchester - Waterloo) that ran a couple of minutes faster.

 

[exile]

The golden age around 1900 was not as golden as all that - most trains consisted of 4 or 6 wheel non-bogie non-corridor non-WC stock, and the ride was appalling on many routes. Due to the huge amount of goods traffic, which earned the profits for the train companies, passenger timetables were seen as a work of fiction. There were of course far more routes open - but on many rural routes trains ran 2 or 3 times a day each direction and averaged 15-20 mph.

On the positive side - you could get from Manchester to Southport in 45 minutes by the fastest service! Manchester-Blackpool was also a much faster service than today, mainly due to omitting all but a couple of stops, and using the Dicconson Lane route to bypass Bolton (wouldn't that be a useful route today?)

 

[w0033944]

2. More stops on most routes - maybe the days of the one or two per day very limited stop services are over, in favour of a more frequent, regular pattern.
3. ...over to you

That appears to havebeen the trend on the GEML; in the 1960s, I think most of the express services only stopped at Ipswich and Colchester (possibly Chelmsford as well?), whereas most, if not all, now also stop at Diss and Stowmarket.

 

[coppercapped]

Since you can't compare them back to back (as all of the Mk1 and Mk2 based stock has been retired - charters excepted) it's hard, but a rough guide:

Mk1 DMUs - bouncy on jointed track, unstable on CWR (bogie hunting was commonplace), so not good.

Mk1 loco-hauled with B1 bogies - better than the DMU's, but basically the same problems. They were restricted to 90mph for that reason (and they were pretty lively at that speed - rock and roll time!)

Mk1 with Commonwealth bogies - much better. These were cleared for 100mph use.

Mk2 loco-hauled - good (they were all fitted with B4 or B5 bogies). Some Mk1 stock was re-bogied with B4/B5 in later years.

(All the above had tread brakes, so were quite noisy when braking).

EMU stock tended to be fitted with whatever was the preferred loco-hauled bogie at the time of build - e.g. I think CEPs used the B1, the VEPs the B4 (were BIG/CIG Commonwealth bogied?)

Mk3/HST - probably the best riding stock we've ever had.

At this point in time 'IC' and EMU/DMU bogie designs started to diverge - the idea was produce cheaper, lower-maintenance bogies with acceptable ride for shorter distance travel. in fact the designs gave quite good ride quality up to 100mph e.g. the class 442 trailer cars ride on nominally 'suburban' bogies.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My impression of modern EMU/DMU stock is that the ride quality is generally very good - certainly good enough that I don't really notice it/remark on it.

By 1978, most loco-hauled stock on the mainlines radiating out of London was Mk2/Mk3/HST (so good ride quality). What we now call 'Cross-Country' was a mixture of Mk1 and Mk2, so it was a bit variable in quality.

Thank you for that summary - it pretty much confirms my memories of the period. For the sake of completeness I would add that the early DMU bogies were in many instances altered and the later ones built to a newer design. The early DMU bogies were based on the 1934 design for the Liverpool - Southport electric units and had shortish, inclined swing links between the bolster and spring plank which lead to a nervous lateral ride. Some were modified with external centring springs to tie the bolster and spring plank together but the most effective change was to replace the inclined swing links with longer vertical ones and control the lateral movement with a hydraulic damper. These could be recognised by a vertical metal plate on the outside of the bogie frames. All the Pressed Steel units running the Paddington suburban services had this arrangement and they rode acceptably up yo their top speed of 70mph. The vertical ride was still a bit jarring because of all the leaf springs but it was OK. Of course the Swindon built InterCity units had B4 bogies and they were a revelation.

The problem with the BR1 bogies used on main line stock was the number of wearing surfaces. When new the bogie was as good as any European one of the era as tests showed, but after about 40,000 miles the ride deteriorated. The BR1 had been modified in 1953 (called the 'BR Modified'... ) with longer swing links and vertical, lateral and rotational damping but was still not entirely satisfactory so purchase of the first Commonwealth bogies was authorised in 1955 and they entered service a year later. BR's own B4 design also dates from 1956. The Commonwealth bogie was used as trailer bogies under the Phase II Kent coast stock with the BR Mk IV power bogie and as power and trailer bogies under the Liverpool Street - Clacton - Walton express emus, the AM9s.

One big change in bogie design in this period was the introduction of the 'worn-wheel' profile - rather than having a coned wheel joining the flange with an abrupt change in profile, the running surface was flared into the flange so there was a smoother transition and the flanges didn't suddenly hit the rail head. Once the details of the necessary elasticities in the suspension components had been sorted out in the later B4 bogies and successors, passenger vehicle ride quality never looked back.

 

[Taunton]

I think the advances from the 1950s B1 bogie were a little later than described above. The Commonwealth really became available around 1960 and was fitted to much of the final production of Mk 1 stock. It was a US design licensed to a Sheffield steel company (it was quite extensively used in the USA on diesel locomotives), so was a bought-in product not made in BR workshops. The Swindon-designed B4 bogie came into production just at the time of the Mk 1/Mk 2 changeover around 1963, although a number were retrofitted to Mk 1 stock, especially the catering cars and BG vans. Both these bogies were suited to 100mph, and gave a better ride at all times. A lot of vehicles with these bogies were gathered together for the start of higher speed WCML electric services in 1966, and some routes, the Midland Division and the NE-SW services especially, were knocked back to older B1 stock for a while.

When the later Mk 1 stock started to be withdrawn their Commonwealth bogies were still valuable, and were used in a number of re-bogie projects, such as the Southern CEP rebuilding.

 

[coppercapped]

I think the advances from the 1950s B1 bogie were a little later than described above. The Commonwealth really became available around 1960 and was fitted to much of the final production of Mk 1 stock. It was a US design licensed to a Sheffield steel company (it was quite extensively used in the USA on diesel locomotives), so was a bought-in product not made in BR workshops. The Swindon-designed B4 bogie came into production just at the time of the Mk 1/Mk 2 changeover around 1963, although a number were retrofitted to Mk 1 stock, especially the catering cars and BG vans. Both these bogies were suited to 100mph, and gave a better ride at all times. A lot of vehicles with these bogies were gathered together for the start of higher speed WCML electric services in 1966, and some routes, the Midland Division and the NE-SW services especially, were knocked back to older B1 stock for a while.

When the later Mk 1 stock started to be withdrawn their Commonwealth bogies were still valuable, and were used in a number of re-bogie projects, such as the Southern CEP rebuilding.

Thank you for the additional information, but the dates I quoted are correct and refer to the prototypes or the initial build, they are taken from British Railways Engineering 1948-80 by Johnson and Long, published by Mechanical Engineering Publications in 1981. Obviously there were periods of trials so larger scale introduction was two or three years later as you state.

 

[Phil.]

Don't forget that the prototype HST was, for a little while galloping around with a Mk1 buffet in the formation (suitably painted to match the rest of the set). It rode quite happily on it's B5 bogies.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The WCML was notoriously rough for track quality in the mid - late 1970's and many of the IC sets were MK2D air con with a "refurbished" MK1 buffet car which had hideous orange bucket plastic seats , orange curtains and rattling along at 100 mph or so was an enervating experience.

The GWML had excellent track quality - thanks to a 6 month block Parkway to Wootten Basset before the 125's were introduced , which had a superlative smooth ride.

Fast Southern services were very lively - especially the 4 REP units.