Tondu (S Wales) Why Token Exchange?

[Envoy]

My understanding is that only 1 train is ever on the single line that goes from Bridgend to Maesteg.

Although a passing loop is located at Tondu, it looks like it is never used. That being the case, why is a token exchanged with the signaller at Tondu box?

Indeed, why is there even a need for Tondu signal box being as the line to Margam appears to be overgrown and locked out of use?

Surely, a train can be given permission to go onto the Maesteg branch at Bridgend and nothing can be allowed onto that line until it returns?

 

[manmikey]

Whilst I don't know the specifics of the branch you talk about a token is very literally the permission to go on to the branch and so nothing else can be allowed onto the branch until the token is returned. There will be some kind of lock in the signal box that issues the token to physically prevent another trian entering the section untill the token is returned
Railway belt and braces safety in action.

 

[Western 52]

The layout at Tondu is essentially historical. It was a busy junction at one time, and although the OVE line to Margam is not used, I think its technically still open, so Tondu is still a junction. Tondu to Maesteg is a separate token section. Incidentally, there are some nice bracket signals remaining there.

 

[Lucy1501]

Although a passing loop is located at Tondu, it looks like it is never used.

The Llynfi Goods Loop is not signalled to passenger standards, and is therefore unsafe for passenger trains. The main reason for this is the provision of trap points at the exits and shunt signals for entry and exit on the loop.

You can find an image of the current box diagram here: https://signalbox.org/~SBdiagram.php/?id= 574

That being the case, why is a token exchanged with the signaller at Tondu box?

Cost. There is currently no train detection on the line, the cheapest method of working is the existing one, a token being given out. Theoretically it is possible to remove the token (e.g. the line being proved clear by sequential track circuit operation or axle counters) but I doubt that’ll come before resignalling.

Indeed, why is there even a need for Tondu signal box being as the line to Margam appears to be overgrown and locked out of use? Surely, a train can be given permission to go onto the Maesteg branch at Bridgend and nothing can be allowed onto that line until it returns?

If you are closing the signal box, you’re going to need to fully resignal it including all the existing branches, which is expensive. The freight operators would start objecting if you tried to close any of the branches - what if they’re needed in the future? Alot of new freight traffic comes from existing mothballed infrastructure.

 

[Western 52]

I think there's a plan to provide a half hourly service on the line which would need a new loop, which would presumably be done alongside resignalling. I can't see the OVE ever being needed again though.

 

[The Planner]

The freight operators would start objecting if you tried to close any of the branches - what if they’re needed in the future? Alot of new freight traffic comes from existing mothballed infrastructure.

That unfortunately ties NR up in knots to the point it tips stuff over the edge of being deliverable.

 

[Gloster]

A comment on the diagram. The entry signal to the Llynfi Loop for southbound trains is only a disc (8), not a full signal, and neither is the exit one (25), which does not indicate the route, unlike the adjacent running signals (3 and 9). All the points leading to the Garw Loop (23, 22, 21 and 18) do have point locks in both Up and Down directions and there are full running signals: this is presumably from the days when Sunday morning diversions sometimes reversed at Tondu. (Back in the early 1980s I was on an Up Fishguard on a Sunday when it did this.)

 

[Western 52]

Diversions via Tondu were once fairly common. I went that way on an HST around 1980. I think there was a block on the main line with diversions arranged last minute. The OVE line is very slow so it takes a while to go that way.

 

[DJ_K666]

The layout at Tondu is essentially historical. It was a busy junction at one time, and although the OVE line to Margam is not used, I think its technically still open, so Tondu is still a junction. Tondu to Maesteg is a separate token section. Incidentally, there are some nice bracket signals remaining there.

Interestingly, there's a section of what appears to be (or, rather, appeared when the Google car went over it) fresh ballast by thrcdelightfully old school Fountain Road level crossing.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

maps.app.goo.gl

 

[Signal_Box]

That unfortunately ties NR up in knots to the point it tips stuff over the edge of being deliverable.

Aren’t the legacy operator (DB) obliged to object to any line closures which could prevent reuse ? The OvE has been OOU for the best part of 6 years now, it’s officially under T3 I’d hate to see how big the pack is after this long !

The Resignalling was part of the Port Talbot phase 2 but that’s been postponed to the point that new workstations have gone into Port Talbot panel instead of Wales ROC so says it all on timescales.

I suspect Tondu SB will outlive me, along with Neath & Brecon, the Marches line SB and West Wales SB.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I think there's a plan to provide a half hourly service on the line which would need a new loop, which would presumably be done alongside resignalling. I can't see the OVE ever being needed again though.

Long term I think TfW's plans are for 4tph to Maesteg - I'll believe it when it happens. I'm pretty ignorant on these things but unless they somehow connect the Llynfi branch to the VOG line without creating chaos on SWML it all seems a bit, um, "over-ambitious"!

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks everyone for taking the time to respond thus far.

it seems to me that paying to have a signaller at Tondu box is just a waste of money? Surely, a pole could be erected at the start of the Maesteg branch at Bridgend to hold the token? Driver enters branch - collects token and heads up to Maesteg and returns token on southbound trip. No train can enter enter line without token. Alternatively, set up an electronic signal at start of branch which the train triggers going up/down.

I am not sure what the plan is regarding boosting services on the Maesteg branch? I think they are aiming for a Maesteg to Ebbw Vale service but with increased frequency on the Ebbw Vale line and not on the Maesteg line, can’t see how that would work out. I also question whether the FLIRT Class 231 trains intended for the Cheltenham run could go all day without fuelling if the western terminus is Maesteg - as it is at present? Perhaps they had been able to run on electric STJ and CDF it would have been possible? Anyway, I digress to something that should be in the Traction or Diagram section.

 

[Gloster]

Even to make the alterations to turn the whole line north of Bridgend into a single section would cost many times the signallers’ wages and the maintenance costs of the current installation. It would also make returning the Margam line or the Llynfi Loop to use even more expensive that it would otherwise be the case. I suspect that they have in mind the relatively inexpensive possibility, by Network Rail standards, of returning the Llynfi Loop to passenger standards so that trains can cross there (I have no inside information, merely a hope that there are still some realistic people in Network Rail.)

 

[Taunton]

Even to make the alterations to turn the whole line north of Bridgend into a single section would cost many times the signallers’ wages and the maintenance costs of the current installation.

This I am afraid is the case all around. It leads to signals being left lit long after a line has been abandoned, and other combinations, where to adapt/simplify the interlocking gets costed at many times the expenditure on running things as they are.

It has never been quite clear where these theoretical costs come from, as they typically, if ever finally agreed, just lead to existing staff working their existing hours on the work.

 

[The Planner]

Aren’t the legacy operator (DB) obliged to object to any line closures which could prevent reuse ? The OvE has been OOU for the best part of 6 years now, it’s officially under T3 I’d hate to see how big the pack is after this long !

If it is their sidings that they lease or own, then clearly yes. If they are network sidings or a disused route its a different issue, you cannot just block things without a good reason.

 

[anthony263]

The OVE was supposed to be getting resignalled to for use by the IETs . Issue you got is long section between Tondu and Margam especially now cefn junction and it's loop is gone. Freightsnwere timed to take 30 minutes or so Margam to Tondu k

 

[HSTEd]

Even to make the alterations to turn the whole line north of Bridgend into a single section would cost many times the signallers’ wages and the maintenance costs of the current installation. It would also make returning the Margam line or the Llynfi Loop to use even more expensive that it would otherwise be the case. I suspect that they have in mind the relatively inexpensive possibility, by Network Rail standards, of returning the Llynfi Loop to passenger standards so that trains can cross there (I have no inside information, merely a hope that there are still some realistic people in Network Rail.)

The problem with this sort of thinking is that many years pass, the line is still out of use and the same argument is used again to wait even longer.

We can't afford to allow largely fanciful ideas of future reuse to lead to paralysis.
In some rare cases it may become necessary to undo work like this in the future, but in most cases the work will save money in the long term.

Eating up valuable personnel and maintenance effort on a line with no practical use, functionally for the rest of time, is insane.

 

[The Planner]

The problem with this sort of thinking is that many years pass, the line is still out of use and the same argument is used again to wait even longer.

We can't afford to allow largely fanciful ideas of future reuse to lead to paralysis.
In some rare cases it may become necessary to undo work like this in the future, but in most cases the work will save money in the long term.

Eating up valuable personnel and maintenance effort on a line with no practical use, functionally for the rest of time, is insane.

Except the fact if its made OOU, reduces the maintenance effort and costs greatly. Keeping it in use for no apparent current or short term need is a different story.

 

[richw]

Interestingly, there's a section of what appears to be (or, rather, appeared when the Google car went over it) fresh ballast by thrcdelightfully old school Fountain Road level crossing.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

maps.app.goo.gl

Compare the streetview November 2021 images you refer to, to those taken just a few months earlier.

 

[The Planner]

Compare the streetview November 2021 images you refer to, to those taken just a few months earlier.

Move further down the line to Bankers Hill and telephones have been put in between June and November 2021.

 

[Envoy]

Suppose the mainline between Bridgend and Port Talbot had a devastating incident, would the Margam to Tondu and then down to Bridgend diversion be available at a moments notice? Looking at the state of the line with the jungle taking over, I suggest not, which really calls into question any point in keeping it in the system?

 

[Meerkat]

Even to make the alterations to turn the whole line north of Bridgend into a single section would cost many times the signallers’ wages and the maintenance costs of the current installation.

Even to put a token machine on Bridgend station and lock out Tondu?

 

[Western 52]

Suppose the mainline between Bridgend and Port Talbot had a devastating incident, would the Margam to Tondu and then down to Bridgend diversion be available at a moments notice? Looking at the state of the line with the jungle taking over, I suggest not, which really calls into question any point in keeping it in the system?

The OVE was always a rather slow line, and diversions over the line were very much longer in time. Also, with Maesteg trains running hourly probably very limited capacity between Tondu and Bridgend. At Margam I think the connection is via the yard now, as the chord to the main line has gone.

 

[anthony263]

The OVE was always a rather slow line, and diversions over the line were very much longer in time. Also, with Maesteg trains running hourly probably very limited capacity between Tondu and Bridgend. At Margam I think the connection is via the yard now, as the chord to the main line has gone.

Track bed is there for the chord to the mainline but yes access now is only via the yard. The line does need some use I believe when hsts were diverted via Tondu they were timed to take nearly an hour to get from Swansea to Bridgend

 

[DelW]

The OVE was always a rather slow line, and diversions over the line were very much longer in time. Also, with Maesteg trains running hourly probably very limited capacity between Tondu and Bridgend. At Margam I think the connection is via the yard now, as the chord to the main line has gone.

I went over it on a railtour in June 2009*. The timings allowed 1h 28m from leaving the main line at Margam Yard junction to arrival at Bridgend, with 10 minutes allowed for reversing at Tondu.

In the event we arrived about 20 minutes early at Tondu, having taken around 44m from Margam Yard junction. That was despite sections taken at walking pace, with branches scraping down the sides of the coaches (and bits of broken branch coming in through any open windows).

*Tempus fugit, until I found the itinerary I thought it was about ten years ago

 

[DJ_K666]

Compare the streetview November 2021 images you refer to, to those taken just a few months earlier.

Oh yes almost a complete carpet of grass in one of them. It's a bit like a timeliness there.
It took me a moment to find the older images lol.

 

[Harpo]

Diversions via Tondu were once fairly common. I went that way on an HST around 1980.

Tondu diversions were in the WTT and Margam had dated jobs to conduct everything between Port Talbot and Bridgend as no other depot signed the route at that time.