Todmorden Curve

[7griffinjack]

There's also the current Clitheroe service, and a second planned service via Darwen after the line upgrade.
This could be the Burnley service running in a circle, of course.
And the new Chester-Warrington-Victoria service, intended to be a through service via the Calder Valley.

Will the Chester service be an extra service through the Calder Valley or an extension of a terminating Manchester Victoria service?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Will the Chester service be an extra service through the Calder Valley or an extension of a terminating Manchester Victoria service?

I'm not sure it has been specified in detail yet.
In the peak it will run to/from Ellesmere Port rather than Chester which will baffle many (Chester being far more popular).
The Northern spec is for 15 "class 158" trains a day from Leeds/Bradford to Victoria, and on to Newton le Willows, Warrington BQ and Chester/Helsby.
There are supposed to be 52 services overall from Leeds/Bradford to Victoria.
I can't decode the Calder Valley stops but it is intended as a fast service I believe.

 

[lejog]

Will the Chester service be an extra service through the Calder Valley or an extension of a terminating Manchester Victoria service?

The Chester service will be an extension of an existing service running from 2017. The extra Manchester to Bradford service will run from 2019, along with the Bradford to Airport service (the two not necessarily being the same service).
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I don't think Transdev was ever that bothered about this service. They inherited it when they bought Northern Blue (a bus company, not a porn company, despite the name). It had had large gaps in the peak service even from the start and no Saturday service so it wasn't really clear who they were aiming it at.

Gaps at school times yes (morning peak and mid afternoon), but definitely a Saturday service. 92 timetable

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The extra Manchester to Bradford service will run from 2019, along with the Bradford to Airport service (the two not necessarily being the same service).

Do I sense a use for the fourth platform at Manchester Airport railway station hidden in this posting..

 

[PHILIPE]

Will the Chester service be an extra service through the Calder Valley or an extension of a terminating Manchester Victoria service?

Probably too early for the complete detail yet.

 

[34D]

Hello,

I haven't looked into this yet, but would a Leeds to Burnley return be valid via Todmorden (three mile rule?) in order to sample this new line?

 

[Deerfold]

Gaps at school times yes (morning peak and mid afternoon), but definitely a Saturday service. 92 timetable

They disappeared at some point, I think at the same time as the journeys became extensions of the 1 - otherwise I would have used it to travel to Todmorden from Keighley on a Transdev ticket.

 

[lejog]

Probably too early for the complete detail yet.

Since the Leeds to Chester service is due to start in 2017 and the extra service on the Calder Valley not planned to start until 2019, I think its safe to conclude that it is planned to be an extension of one of the existing Calder Valley services.

The CP5 Plan shows Northern Hub capacity/line speed improvements on the Calder Valley complete by 2017, but for the line to be used "extensively" for diversions during TPE electrification, delaying new Calder Valley services. So perhaps we'll be lucky to see the extra service actually appear some time around 2023
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do I sense a use for the fourth platform at Manchester Airport railway station hidden in this posting..

Perhaps when a Calder Valley service finally rolls in there in 6 to 8 years time (given current progress on the Ordsall Chord and TPE Electrification).

 

[snail]

£8million could have build a small new station somewhere.

Where would you build this station? I wouldn't say 8.30pm on a weeknight is really the time to collect a representative sample of passenger numbers.

 

[Darren R]

Hello,

I haven't looked into this yet, but would a Leeds to Burnley return be valid via Todmorden (three mile rule?) in order to sample this new line?

I've been pondering similar route validity questions myself since the service started! From what I can tell from National Rail Enquiries (until it got fed-up of answering my questions and started flashing error messages instead! :roll the answer seems to depend on the type of ticket. It seems to be telling me that it is valid via Todmorden with a change there, but only on an 'Anytime' ticket. If travelling on an 'Off Peak' ticket it's telling me that two tickets are required.

I'm sort of getting the impression that there are now quite a few fare and routing anomolies as a consequence of being able to travel via Todmorden. Since it's just as easy for me to travel from either Darwen or Blackburn stations, this is something I shall be looking at over the weekend!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

All being well and the weather forecast showing a dry day, I will be travelling on the 0957 Saturday service from Manchester Victoria tomorrow to Clitheroe, via the Copy Pit line and having the added excitement of a reversal at Blackburn to look forward to. Arrival time at Clitheroe stated to be 1139.

I will be visiting the iconic Dawson's department store with its very large display of a number of styles of Moorcroft pottery and lunching as usual in The Apricot Meringue, then generally seeing as much as the town as possible, before returning at 1550 in the reverse direction to which I arrived and arriving at Manchester Victoria at 1729.

 

[Grumpy]

'rebuilding' is perhaps a little erroneous. What was there already (the platforms) have hardly changed. It's just had a building, a screen and ticket machine added, although it does mean it is now staffed part-time, which is very weird. Just the one-shift, Mon-Fri only. Now the poor cousin in terms of service (although maybe not location) is Burnley Central which is open until late every day.

I don't think that's the case. It certainly seemed to be staffed earlier this evening.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well, Saturday has come and gone and I did make my inaugural journey from Manchester Victoria to Clitheroe that took in the Todmorden Chord, that being the current Saturday special operational timetable.

The weather was excellent, but whilst the outward journey had a 2 car Class 150/1 which was adequate for the loadings expected on an early Saturday morning service from Manchester, the provision from Clitheroe in mid-afternoon on a hot and sunny Saturday of another 2 car Class 150/1 which seemed to attract many families voyaging into Manchester was totally unsuitable and this train was very overcrowded with many standing passengers in the later stages of the journey.

 

[ianhr]

Well, Saturday has come and gone and I did make my inaugural journey from Manchester Victoria to Clitheroe that took in the Todmorden Chord, that being the current Saturday special operational timetable.

The weather was excellent, but whilst the outward journey had a 2 car Class 150/1 which was adequate for the loadings expected on an early Saturday morning service from Manchester, the provision from Clitheroe in mid-afternoon on a hot and sunny Saturday of another 2 car Class 150/1 which seemed to attract many families voyaging into Manchester was totally unsuitable and this train was very overcrowded with many standing passengers in the later stages of the journey.

I always find this annoying and frustrating. Saturday is a really busy day on both Northern and TPE and yet they fail to diagram enough rolling stock to relieve overcrowding. This must give a very poor image of the railway to occasional and leisure users. I suppose the excuse given will be that the depot staff need the stock at weekends for maintenance.

 

[northwichcat]

In the peak it will run to/from Ellesmere Port rather than Chester which will baffle many (Chester being far more popular).

Alternatives could have been:
a) for one unit to transfer from ATW to Northern and for the morning extra Chester-Manchester and the evening extra Manchester-Chester to be diverted to Ellesmere Port, allowing the standard pattern Chester-Leeds to run at peak times.
b) for the morning extra Chester-Manchester and the evening extra Manchester-Chester to be diverted to Ellesmere Port but remaining with ATW and the occasional Helsby-Ellesmere Port services to transfer to ATW.

The Northern spec is for 15 "class 158" trains a day from Leeds/Bradford to Victoria, and on to Newton le Willows, Warrington BQ and Chester/Helsby.

The paths will be for class 158 running. It doesn't mean if Northern get 100mph 17xs or new build 100/110mph trains that they won't be used on Chester-Leeds.

 

[edwin_m]

this train was very overcrowded with many standing passengers in the later stages of the journey.

So they didn't all choose the more attractive bus option then?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So they didn't all choose the more attractive bus option then?

You are hoist by your own petard, young gentleman...

The Saturday rail service via the Copy Pit line, Todmorden, Littleborough, Rochdale and Manchester that I so described in my earlier posting would not pick up any prospective bus passengers from Todmorden onwards (where the very heavy loadings so occurred at stations from there) into Manchester...unless you know of such a "more attractive Todmorden to Manchester" omnibus service.

The X43 "Lancashire Witch" omnibus service travels into Rawtenstall, the M66, the M62 and the road into Manchester, which in no way remotely serves any of the settlements of Todmorden, Littleborough or Rochdale.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Out of interest what were the loadings like between Burnley and Todmorden and vice versa?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Out of interest what were the loadings like between Burnley and Todmorden and vice versa?

On the outward mid-morning journey towards Clitheroe, very light. On the mid-afternoon journey, there seemed to be a number of women all heading off to a concert in Manchester plus some family groups, the weather having been very hot and sunny.

 

[edwin_m]

You are host by your own petard, young gentleman...

The Saturday rail service via the Copy Pit line, Todmorden, Littleborough, Rochdale and Manchester that I so described in my earlier posting would not pick up any prospective bus passengers from Todmorden onwards (where the very heavy loadings so occurred at stations from there) into Manchester...unless you know of such a "more attractive Todmorden to Manchester" omnibus service.

The X43 "Lancashire Witch" omnibus service travels into Rawtenstall, the M66, the M62 and the road into Manchester, which in no way remotely serves any of the settlements of Todmorden, Littleborough or Rochdale.

I was guided by your previous quote of the train being full "later in its journey" from Clitheroe to Manchester to believe that might have included Burnley. You have now clarified that you meant from Todmorden onwards.

 

[Deerfold]

You are host by your own petard, young gentleman...

Hoist, surely?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hoist, surely?

Now amended....just seeing how many were fully awake on the Sunday prior to a Bank Holiday Monday...

 

[Starmill]

I don't think that's the case. It certainly seemed to be staffed earlier this evening.

I agree that the hours posted on NRE are wildly inaccurate - no surprises there then! The ticket office at Manchester Road was open shortly before 2100 when I passed!

 

[158756]

As commuters are usually very important to the success of a rail service, I've found some stats relating to the potential of this route.

(Figures from 2011 census)

A total of 365 people were reported to commute from Burnley borough to Manchester. Some of these will live in Padiham and hence be unlikely to consider the train.

Rail was reported to have 28% of the nearby Blackburn and Darwen to Manchester travel to work flow.

It will get a much smaller proportion of Burnley to Manchester commuters, because:

a) Rail has a significant time advantage over the car from Blackburn and Darwen but not Burnley.
b) The peak time rail service is more frequent at Blackburn.
c) There's a high quality bus service from Burnley, who's customers are presumably either not bothered by speed or very concerned about cost, given they've put up with the 90 minute commute up to now.

Much less than 28% of 365(minus a bit) isn't many passengers.

 

[Rail Bus]

As commuters are usually very important to the success of a rail service, I've found some stats relating to the potential of this route.

(Figures from 2011 census)

A total of 365 people were reported to commute from Burnley borough to Manchester. Some of these will live in Padiham and hence be unlikely to consider the train.

Rail was reported to have 28% of the nearby Blackburn and Darwen to Manchester travel to work flow.

It will get a much smaller proportion of Burnley to Manchester commuters, because:

a) Rail has a significant time advantage over the car from Blackburn and Darwen but not Burnley.
b) The peak time rail service is more frequent at Blackburn.
c) There's a high quality bus service from Burnley, who's customers are presumably either not bothered by speed or very concerned about cost, given they've put up with the 90 minute commute up to now.

Much less than 28% of 365(minus a bit) isn't many passengers.

what was the point of the reopening then. Surely better to invest on the busy routes?

 

[Moonshot]

what was the point of the reopening then. Surely better to invest on the busy routes?

Indeed.....and in fact some time ago, Graham Stringer ( MP for Blackely Manchester ) made a strikingly similar comment a couple of years ago in a Transport Select Committee session.

 

[kevconnor]

what was the point of the reopening then. Surely better to invest on the busy routes?

Part of the logic was making it easier for people to be able to travel to Manchester, and so thus leading to economic development by allowing residents of Burnley to be able to more easily access higher paying jobs in Manchester than it would ever be possible to attract to Burnley.

 

[edwin_m]

Part of the logic was making it easier for people to be able to travel to Manchester, and so thus leading to economic development by allowing residents of Burnley to be able to more easily access higher paying jobs in Manchester than it would ever be possible to attract to Burnley.

Exactly. I don't suppose there were many commuters from Mansfield into Nottingham when the Robin Hood Line opened either.

 

[Geeves]

They have updated the times to 06:35 - 21:45 so you cant complain the hours are not any good now!

Over in Greater Manchester world they cut all our hours so even Rochdale and Wigan are now closed at 20:00 and 18:00 M-Thr respectively. Hey ho.

 

[lejog]

what was the point of the reopening then. Surely better to invest on the busy routes?

Because government money for the costs of the reopening came from a regeneration budget, not an investment for the railways budget. Whether it attracts the middle class commuters Burnley hopes for is another matter, I'm afraid the town is hardly a Ribble Valley or even a Calder Valley.