Todmorden Curve

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I noticed today that the 20mph restriction through Holme Tunnel has been removed.
That means trains are passing through at the 45mph of the rest of the line (nothing to write home about!).
It might have happened weeks ago, but I don't recall it being mentioned here.
The new station building at Burnley Manchester Road still appears to be behind a construction fence.

When the Holme Tunnel works were recently completed, was there a need to let a certain number of weeks elapse before the raising of the tunnel area speed limit to the speed limit of the other sections on the Copy Pit line?

The matter of the Burnley Manchester Road railway station, being on the existing service line of Blackpool North to York is indeed one worthy of an official explanation, one should well imagine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Witch Way's fares are extortionate. Rail could make some serious money out of their market.

I've got that Scissor Sisters song in my head now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHv0jW4p_xA

My good forum colleague made the abovementioned posting in May 2011 on this thread, which just goes to show how the fiasco on the chord is viewed now in October 2014.

Seeing as "Rail" have no rolling stock available to run a competitive service, the only serious money, as stated above, has been regularly entering the coffers of those charged with the running of the X43 Lancashire Witch bus service. During the time that has elapsed since the posting was made, yet another new fleet of the special buses running on the X43 bus route has both been both ordered and put into service, no doubt as a result of the aforesaid "serious money"

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Witch Way's fares are extortionate. Rail could make some serious money out of their market.

I've got that Scissor Sistors song in my head now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHv0jW4p_xA

The Gold day ticket, I feel to be good value. Travel from Manchester to Skipton or Keighley for under a tenner with one change in Burnley - cheaper and quicker than the train the long way round via Leeds.

When holidaying in Keighley (yes, really) I buy an OPR to Manchester then a Transdev Gold on the out and return journeys. It still works out cheaper than the train and I can trundle around Lancashire en-route.

 

[Darren R]

The problem, perhaps, is one of openness and honesty to the public.

If the capital resources were there but not the revenue, why not be honest with the public instead of stringing them along?

Because that would require all those reponsible for the fiasco (both within the rail industry and without) to hold their hands up publicly and admit they screwed up. Far easier to let someone else carry the can, and forget all possibility of learning the lessons for next time. It used to be said that responsibility without power was the perogative of the eunach throughout the ages: in this country we seem to have the exact opposite - power without responsibility. And of course the inability to learn from mistakes merely increases the likelihood of it happening again elsewhere.

Meanwhile, the bus companies are laughing up their sleeves. Again I am reminded of "The Titfield Thunderbolt."

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Meanwhile, the bus companies are laughing up their sleeves. Again I am reminded of "The Titfield Thunderbolt."

The difference in "The Titfield Thunderbolt" being the challenge of a new bus operator against the possible loss of a rail service and the sterling efforts of the local community to ensure that the rail service was running, is that both modes of transport were there.

In "The Todmorden Phantom", ,whilst the existing X43 "Lancashire Witch" bus service continues apace with modern state-of-the-art" buses with Wi-Fi, comfortable ergonomically designed seating, etc, the rail alternative is nowhere to be found, not even a Pacer, even an ex-Merseyrail Class 142 horror, could be sourced to run a service in opposition.

Charlie Chaplin or the Marx Brothers would have a field day with the film script.

 

[Signal Head]

That's what I don't understand either. I think signalling was mentioned somewhere, so presume it is some sort of problem with the signalling at the Burnley end of the curve which prevents this end being used. Does anyone know if there are temporary stops, possession markers etc on this bit of track?

I also think it must have been a drop-off that wasn't known about in advance, otherwise the delay would have been announced further ahead. Possibly a question of non-compliance with one of the many standards, only picked up once the equipment was installed on site.

It's not a non-compliance, as I mentioned last time you raised this, the limitation of working in one direction was introduced as a temporary expedient to get the curve 'available'. Signalling is generally simpler if you only have to worry about one direction, you then don't need any interlocking to prevent something 'coming the other way'.

The Stansfield Hall end was already signalled for moves on and off the original engine siding, but this bit of the interlocking wouldn't 'know' about the other (new) junction at the Todmorden end, so circuitry needs to be added to prevent head on moves being signalled from each end at the same time.

Given that, in the middle of the project, Network Rail decided to relay and reposition Stansfield Hall Junction (after the majority of the curve had been laid in heading for the original junction :roll, and that this required further signalling alterations, it's not really surprising that the completion was delayed as resources would need to be diverted to deal with the extra work caused by this change in scope.

Simplifying the signalling for the initial commissioning, by ditching the bidirectional locking, would help in getting 'something' working for the required date, or at least close to it. The alternative may well have been to delay the whole thing, but that probably wouldn't have allowed the turnbacks to run by anything like the required date.

To do this safely, the current Up routes onto the curve at Stansfield which would conflict with the new Down routes onto the curve at Todmorden need to be disabled completely. You could potentially do this the other way round, ie have both directions at Stansfield and only one at Todmorden, but then you cannot operate the turnbacks.

 

[tbtc]

Seeing as "Rail" have no rolling stock available to run a competitive service

So the long-awaited track is there, the re-furbed Burnley Manchester Road is there, the intention is there, the will is there but no service because there’s no trains

In "The Todmorden Phantom", ,whilst the existing X43 "Lancashire Witch" bus service continues apace with modern state-of-the-art" buses with Wi-Fi, comfortable ergonomically designed seating, etc, the rail alternative is nowhere to be found, not even a Pacer, even an ex-Merseyrail Class 142 horror, could be sourced to run a service in opposition

I dont know if it has passed you by 158756, but the fact there are no trains is entirely the fault of the DFT. If Northern had the trains to run said service they would of been doing already!

"Do not ask for rolling stock, as a refusal often offends" could well be the wording on an engraved plaque hanging on the wall of a certain organization...

You know that old maxim about If You Repeat A Lie Often Enough, People Will Accept It As The Truth?

Well, it may be an inconvenient truth, but the reason that the services aren't running is that the infrastructure isn't ready. We could have sidings full of spare stock but if the signalling etc isn't ready then what do people expect us to do?

I can't believe that I am still seeing people going down the "no spare trains" route, when we've known that the infrastructure is the reason for some time. Still, don't let the facts get in the way of bashing Northern, eh?

So, in the view of this Forum, what has to happen to establish a service from Burnley M.Rd. to Manchester Vic

Get the signalling sorted out? Then we'll find some DMU resource (even if it comes at the cost of replacing a doubled up 142 with a single 156 and replacing a single 156 with a single 142, for the sake of freeing up a 142).

It won't necessarily be popular with those seeing their services reduced, but some political will will ensure that something is thrown at this fledgling route at the timetable change after the infrastructure is actually ready.

Won't be long until more 75mph DMUs are available, with electrification through St Helens etc.

 

[158756]

You know that old maxim about If You Repeat A Lie Often Enough, People Will Accept It As The Truth?

Well, it may be an inconvenient truth, but the reason that the services aren't running is that the infrastructure isn't ready. We could have sidings full of spare stock but if the signalling etc isn't ready then what do people expect us to do?

I can't believe that I am still seeing people going down the "no spare trains" route, when we've known that the infrastructure is the reason for some time. Still, don't let the facts get in the way of bashing Northern, eh?



Get the signalling sorted out? Then we'll find some DMU resource (even if it comes at the cost of replacing a doubled up 142 with a single 156 and replacing a single 156 with a single 142, for the sake of freeing up a 142).

It won't necessarily be popular with those seeing their services reduced, but some political will will ensure that something is thrown at this fledgling route at the timetable change after the infrastructure is actually ready.

Won't be long until more 75mph DMUs are available, with electrification through St Helens etc.

The infrastructure was meant to be completed for this May, but there would be no trains to run on it. Northern haven't acquired any new(useable) stock since, so presumably if the signalling is completed in February, or even tomorrow, there will still be no trains to run over it.
There is no political will for it to happen, and if taking a 142 from an existing service wasn't an option six months ago it is unlikely to be now. Most likely no trains will run through to Burnley until the timetable change after Northern start using their 319s. Which means next May if we're lucky.
So really it doesn't matter that the railway can't lay a few hundred metres of track in four months, because the infrastructure is still going to be ready several months minimum before any trains actually run.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The infrastructure was meant to be completed for this May, but there would be no trains to run on it. Northern haven't acquired any new(useable) stock since, so presumably if the signalling is completed in February, or even tomorrow, there will still be no trains to run over it.

Thank you for putting an established truth in print in response to those whose memories appear not to run back as far as May 2014, a matter of some six months ago.

 

[edwin_m]

It's not a non-compliance, as I mentioned last time you raised this, the limitation of working in one direction was introduced as a temporary expedient to get the curve 'available'...

Thanks for clearing this up - I must have missed your previous reply which does make technical sense.

I think the concern was due to it becoming apparent rather late that the work wasn't fully complete, giving the impression that it hadn't been properly planned.

 

[spongsdad]

You know that old maxim about If You Repeat A Lie Often Enough, People Will Accept It As The Truth?

Well, it may be an inconvenient truth, but the reason that the services aren't running is that the infrastructure isn't ready. We could have sidings full of spare stock but if the signalling etc isn't ready then what do people expect us to do?

I can't believe that I am still seeing people going down the "no spare trains" route, when we've known that the infrastructure is the reason for some time. Still, don't let the facts get in the way of bashing Northern, eh? :win

Get the signalling sorted out? Then we'll find some DMU resource (even if it comes at the cost of replacing a doubled up 142 with a single 156 and replacing a single 156 with a single 142, for the sake of freeing up a 142).

It won't necessarily be popular with those seeing their services reduced, but some political will will ensure that something is thrown at this fledgling route at the timetable change after the infrastructure is actually ready.

Won't be long until more 75mph DMUs are available, with electrification through St Helens etc.

The fact that the infrastructure isn't ready doesn't make it the reason for the non appearance of a train service. It can be argued that the non availability of rolling stock reduced the urgency to complete the infrastructure; indeed a number of the posters on this thread have so argued, in my view with justification.
So far as "bashing Northern" is concerned, surely you aren't arguing that they have displayed any sense of urgency in this matter, are you? They have recently denied NR an opportunity to complete the work this side of 2015 by vetoing an occupation before Christmas. That may well be justified in terms of minimising pre Christmas disruption but it doesn't indicate that Northern Rail are in any great hurry to see the project completed.
And, as a final thought, a twelve month delay (assuming services start in May 2015) is a lamentable advertisement for the rail industry, whatever explanation/excuse is put forward.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The difference in "The Titfield Thunderbolt" being the challenge of a new bus operator against the possible loss of a rail service and the sterling efforts of the local community to ensure that the rail service was running, is that both modes of transport were there.

In "The Todmorden Phantom", ,whilst the existing X43 "Lancashire Witch" bus service continues apace with modern state-of-the-art" buses with Wi-Fi, comfortable ergonomically designed seating, etc, the rail alternative is nowhere to be found, not even a Pacer, even an ex-Merseyrail Class 142 horror, could be sourced to run a service in opposition.

Charlie Chaplin or the Marx Brothers would have a field day with the film script.

On the other hand, there appears to be at least one passenger on the X43 for whom the service isn't all it's cracked up to be. https://twitter.com/duncmand/status/527172980351438848

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Noticed this before, which explains why the new building Burnley MR is standing unused. It's from over a month ago however, so I guess it depends how long it takes to install energy efficient lights:

CAMPAIGNERS have banded together to demand answers over why Burnley’s flagship new railway station has apparently been standing idle for nearly three months.

Travellers have been left puzzled over why the revamped Burnley Manchester Road station, which is set to have its first ticket office for decades, remains closed.

Today, town hall chiefs insisted that the station should open in October after extra ‘energy efficiency’ measures, believed to cover the station’s lighting, are installed.

Rail users had speculated that the station might not have actually opened until the first trains were operational for the long-awaited faster East Lancashire to Manchester service.

The Lancashire Telegraph revealed earlier this year that - after being hampered initially by a lack of rolling stock - the route would not start until next May because signalling had not been installed by Network Rail on one end of the reinstated Todmorden Curve.

It has also been rumoured that the station’s partners were waiting until a Royal visitor could be secured for the opening - a claim dismissed by town hall bosses.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...gners_angry_over_Burnley_train_station_delay/

 

[Deerfold]

Noticed this before, which explains why the new building Burnley MR is standing unused. It's from over a month ago however, so I guess it depends how long it takes to install energy efficient lights:



http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...gners_angry_over_Burnley_train_station_delay/

Is it more energy efficient to have it stood empty?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On the other hand, there appears to be at least one passenger on the X43 for whom the service isn't all it's cracked up to be. https://twitter.com/duncmand/status/527172980351438848

Most probably a Northern Rail PR person trying his best to "rubbish the opposition", but carefully forgetting there is NO Northern Rail rail service. Perhaps someone needs to respond to him to tell to wait for the next Northern Rail train on the promised new service and then to say how long he was waiting for that to arrive...

 

[Deerfold]

On the other hand, there appears to be at least one passenger on the X43 for whom the service isn't all it's cracked up to be. https://twitter.com/duncmand/status/527172980351438848

Do you have any details on what's in that? I can't access twitter from my current location.

 

[spongsdad]

Do you have any details on what's in that? I can't access twitter from my current location.

This is the tweet in question; there are others in similar vein.
"Duncmand: @lancashirebus words fail me. X43, worst service ever. How many times, price goes up but service gets worse. Feel sorry for drivers. Hate it"

 

[spongsdad]

For those followers of this thread who haven't fallen asleep, emigrated, hibernated or died, the Burnley Express is now reporting that Burnley Manchester Road station will fully open next week. See this link http://www.burnleyexpress.net/news/...888?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
Apparently some failure of inspection regarding building regulations. Or just some excuse. Seeing is believing: I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Lankyline]

Not that this will come as any surprise, but simply confirms what everyone probably knows is that according to a tweet from Northern today, in reply to a query re rolling stock, was that they had asked Dft for more stock & there is no spare rolling stock in UK, make of that what you will.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For those followers of this thread who haven't fallen asleep, emigrated, hibernated or died, the Burnley Express is now reporting that Burnley Manchester Road station will fully open next week. See this link http://www.burnleyexpress.net/news/...888?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
Apparently some failure of inspection regarding building regulations. Or just some excuse. Seeing is believing: I'll believe it when I see it.

Nine days since you made this posting....anything further to add?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Nine days since you made this posting....anything further to add?

It opened on Monday morning:

Burnley’s new £2.3m. Manchester Road railway station finally opened its doors to its first passengers this morning.

The regenerated station has a staffed ticket and information office, a larger car park, CCTV, a real time passenger information system and new waiting shelters. The station also has a facility for the East Lancashire Community Rail partnership.

http://www.burnleyexpress.net/what-s-on/reviews/new-station-opens-its-doors-1-6956690

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Moaning Minnie 1) What is the purpose of that wall towards the end of the station building - with what looks like a 'stick-on' BR double arrow logo on?

Moaning Minnie 2) Just how far is it from the ticket office to the opposite platform i.e. Blackburn direction. Previously you could, legitimately, have bought on the train (or was there a ticket machine), now passengers will have to buy before boarding suffering a long detour in the process.

Praiseful Phil 1) The platform appears much more open and thus psychologically safer. Before it was hidden by trees and stuff and I felt quite unsafe down there.

Question - is the 'Ministry of Ale' pub still open nearby. Beer brewed on the premises and customers with amazing mind reading abilities (they were listening to the football on the radio but could clearly see that the referee had made a mistake).

 

[Deerfold]

Moaning Minnie 1) What is the purpose of that wall towards the end of the station building - with what looks like a 'stick-on' BR double arrow logo on?

That's be the NR double arrow logo. Hasn't been BR for a while now.

 

[ianhr]

Nice to see it is finally open. It is a pity they did not do something about the dreadful 'temporary' wooden platforms! It does really need a footbridge to the westbound platform too, but I suppose this would add hugely to the costs as I assume lifts are now mandatory.

(Burnley has beaten Wakefield Kirkgate to it! Rebuild there will not be finished now until Easter 2015 having taken >3 years!)

 

[L&Y Robert]

It does really need a footbridge to the westbound platform too, but I suppose this would add hugely to the costs as I assume lifts are now mandatory.

So how does one get to the westbound platform then? There used to be a footbridge, and a "branch" from the westbound side corner landing was a steep footpath (cobbled, I remember) to a wicket gate on Manchester Road (uphill of the road bridge). It was steep enough to have a handrail. We (Ma, Pa, sisters and I) used that route every Saturday morning to get the train to Tod. (via the old West Curve, of course).

 

[ianhr]

So how does one get to the westbound platform then? There used to be a footbridge, and a "branch" from the westbound side corner landing was a steep footpath (cobbled, I remember) to a wicket gate on Manchester Road (uphill of the road bridge). It was steep enough to have a handrail. We (Ma, Pa, sisters and I) used that route every Saturday morning to get the train to Tod. (via the old West Curve, of course).

I have not been there yet to have a look but I assume access is via the Manchester Road bridge.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have not been there yet to have a look but I assume access is via the Manchester Road bridge.

My wife, who has friends at Heald Green, says that very same situation of access via the road overbridge there applies since the footbridge there was demolished.

 

[L&Y Robert]

I have not been there yet to have a look but I assume access is via the Manchester Road bridge.

Well, that's a long way round, that is. Unsatisfactory in other ways too, e.g. book ticket, leave station, trudge UP public road (it's a hill!) to where? The steep cobbled footpath I mentioned? Or what? Re-enter station West side, descend said footpath to platform. Phew! There will be some, the more agile, who will be tempted to jump down and cross the tracks. IT NEEDS A FOOTBRIDGE - do you hear?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Just had one of my sideways thoughts.

If, having bought a ticket at the ticket office, has your journey commenced? In which case does leaving railway property to cross to the other platform constitute a break of outward journey - disallowed on some tickets!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Nice to see it is finally open. It is a pity they did not do something about the dreadful 'temporary' wooden platforms! It does really need a footbridge to the westbound platform too, but I suppose this would add hugely to the costs as I assume lifts are now mandatory.

Would lifts still be mandatory if there is alternative (albeit rather long) step free access available by using the road bridge?

 

[Olaf]

The infrastructure was meant to be completed for this May, but there would be no trains to run on it. Northern haven't acquired any new(useable) stock since, so presumably if the signalling is completed in February, or even tomorrow, there will still be no trains to run over it.

Perhaps someone should take the initiative and follow in Eric Sykes' footsteps

 

[Deerfold]

Just had one of my sideways thoughts.

If, having bought a ticket at the ticket office, has your journey commenced? In which case does leaving railway property to cross to the other platform constitute a break of outward journey - disallowed on some tickets!

Although I doubt you'd ever have any problems, you're allowed to leave station premises to catch a connecting service.