Todmorden Curve

[PhilipW]

If Northern are looking for a spare DMU for next May, they could try asking SWT for one of their 158s.

SWT won't admit to having any spare but they do rather like running them over all-electric routes so I'm sure one could be released.

 

[northwichcat]

If Northern are looking for a spare DMU for next May, they could try asking SWT for one of their 158s.

SWT won't admit to having any spare but they do rather like running them over all-electric routes so I'm sure one could be released.

If you recall SWT have loaned a 158 to Northern on a short term loan before but Northern left it at Scarborough station overnight and it was badly vandalised. That was also why when Northern loaned 150s from ATW in the past they made sure they were on diagrams which returned to Newton Heath at the end of the day.

SWT also loaned a 158 to EMT in the early days of the EMT franchise and I think they've loaned a 158 to FGW before as well.

 

[Eagle]

SWT won't admit to having any spare but they do rather like running them over all-electric routes so I'm sure one could be released.

Surely the fact that they're running DMUs on electric routes indicates that they don't have enough EMUs. And releasing DMUs will only make that worse.

However, the impending 456s and 458 modifications will alleviate this. But SWT have already decided to keep the 158s to help with the overcrowding on their diesel routes (which is caused by them having to use DMUs to make up for their EMU shortage rather than where they're needed).

So all in all, it's impossible.

 

[northwichcat]

So all in all, it's impossible.

I don't think any sublease is impossible between two operators who share the same type of traction.

If EMT suffered a high number of problems with 158s I imagine Stagecoach would want SWT to sublease to EMT regardless.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Recent parliamentary Q&As on the topic:

Yes of course sir modern rolling stock should be provided for a stopping service from Manchester to Burnley via Todmorden. Of course that makes sense.

 

[Darren R]

Those I assume would be the same professionals that withdraw the last Calder Valley stopping services via Bradford and are then 'hindered' by stakeholders into reinstalling some services. Not to mention concerns of some stakeholders of the possible closure of an already poorly performing station.

I can assure you that I've advised some local stakeholders of some of the posts made in this thread on plans in 2016 to strengthen the Tod to Victoria and Halifax to Leeds services rather than reinstalling the stopping service. Also that the planned Bradford to Manchester Airport and Liverpool services may turn out to be a Bradford to Chester service and a Rochdale to Airport service. You can rest assured that if these are true, further hinderances will occur.

Erm, I don't really understand what you mean - when did the Calder Valley lose its stopping services via Bradford? And which planned Bradford to Manchester Airport services? The Ordall Curve is still in its planning stages, I doubt much consideration has been given to the minutiae of future timetable planning at this early stage. My little rant was not against consultation per se but at the extent of it and the length (and cost) of the whole process. There is a happy medium!



I couldn't help noticing this in the Parliamentary exchange quoted earlier:

Stephen Hammond: It is not the Department's policy to specify age or other characteristics of rolling stock. This is a matter for train operators.

hock:

 

[Darren R]

The Lancashire Telegraph reported yesterday (Friday 20th) that there is "New hope for East Lancashire to Manchester rail link", although my reading of it is that they are, in fact, merely reporting the status quo as being a new development.

New hope for East Lancashire to Manchester rail link

A POSSIBLE lifeline could be thrown to East Lancashire’s long-awaited faster train service to Manchester after the intervention af a transport minister.

The Lancashire Telegraph revealed earlier this year that no diesel trains could be found to run on the reinstated Todmorden Curve, when it is scheduled to reopen in the spring.

Northern Rail had blamed a national shortage of diesel units — provoking fury among East Lancashire MPs and leading councillors.

Blackburn MP Jack Straw, during a Transport Questions session in the House of Commons, said it was a ‘bizarre situation’, after an £8million investment, that there were now no trains to run along the line from East Lancashire to Manchester Victoria. The former Home Secretary asked ministers to meet with both himself and Hyndburn MP Graham Jones regarding possible delays to the much-anticipated route’s operation. Burnley MP Gordon Birtwistle has also raised questions about the delay.

In reply, Transport Minister Stephen Hammond said he had already been lobbied about the matter by a number of Lancashire MPs. He said: “I expect to have some good news about rolling stock next year and I would be happy to meet the right honourable gentleman and his colleague.”

Originally the East Lancashire to Manchester Victoria service, running from Blackburn through Accrington, Rosegrove, Burnley Manchester Road and Todmorden, was destined to begin next May, before the trains shortage was disclosed.

Coun Margaret Lishman, opposition leader on Burnley Council, has urged every borough councillor to email Northern Rail regarding the trains delay.

Burnley Council leader Coun Julie Cooper said it was ‘embarrassing’ that, after having the line reinstated following years of campaigning, there were no trains to transport passengers.

(Link: http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/10891683.New_hope_for_East_Lancashire_to_Manchester_rail_link/

Jack Straw (the Learned Member for Blackburn) raised the issue during Transport Questions, and the answer has not changed since the last time it was raised; ie, an announcement next year. I think the Telegraph have read that as meaning soon into next year and got a bit carried away! There doesn't seem to be anything either concrete or not known already.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Jack Straw (the Learned Member for Blackburn) raised the issue during Transport Questions, and the answer has not changed since the last time it was raised; ie, an announcement next year. I think the Telegraph have read that as meaning soon into next year and got a bit carried away! There doesn't seem to be anything either concrete or not known already.

Come what may, the matter of the infrastructural works currently being carried out on the Holme Tunnel that have closed the Copy Pit line down completely until Friday, 28th March 2014 has also to be remembered when consideration is given to the use of that particular line.

 

[Philip]

Are the rails on the Caldervale line still as noisy as they were a few years ago? Even in some of the urban areas of the line (think Mills Hill was one section) the rails were very noisy and it was noticeable as 5 or 6 years ago most urban lines had been 'quietened' by that stage because of noise pollution issues. This one certainly hadn't been!

Sorry to go off topic a bit, just a general query!

 

[Lankyline]

Jack Straw (the Learned Member for Blackburn) raised the issue during Transport Questions, and the answer has not changed since the last time it was raised; ie, an announcement next year. I think the Telegraph have read that as meaning soon into next year and got a bit carried away! There doesn't seem to be anything either concrete or not known already.[/QUOTE]

Maybe Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) should have a word with Jack straw about Northern's upcoming capacity issues on the Chorley line, it seems that there is some "political" manouvering going on to try and avoid blame for lack of rolling stock for Northern.

If the DfT come under pressure for this who's going to bet against Northern carrying the blame, because it seems that all involved eg TOC, DfT etc should shoulder their respective parts of the blame for lack of stock

 

[CalderRail]

Are the rails on the Caldervale line still as noisy as they were a few years ago? Even in some of the urban areas of the line (think Mills Hill was one section) the rails were very noisy and it was noticeable as 5 or 6 years ago most urban lines had been 'quietened' by that stage because of noise pollution issues. This one certainly hadn't been!

Most of the noise is from running unbogied railbuses on tight curvature lines - something which the Todmorden Curve is definitely going to suffer from!

 

[Francis]

When the Bolton to Manchester electrification begins, and we are likely to have a couple of months of single line working through one of the Kearsley tunnels, while the other one is lowered and wired or whatever necessary - is there any plan on the horizon yet to divert most Clitheroe / Blackburn - Manchester trains round via Accrington, Burnley, Todmorden and Rochdale? It would seem a distinct possibility.

I can see them even running Bolton to Manchester via Wigan Wallgate (reverse) and Parkside curve, or Hindley Crow Nest Jc (reverse) and Atherton. Anyone know of any such contingency plans?

 

[Darren R]

When the Bolton to Manchester electrification begins, and we are likely to have a couple of months of single line working through one of the Kearsley tunnels, while the other one is lowered and wired or whatever necessary - is there any plan on the horizon yet to divert most Clitheroe / Blackburn - Manchester trains round via Accrington, Burnley, Todmorden and Rochdale? It would seem a distinct possibility.

I can see them even running Bolton to Manchester via Wigan Wallgate (reverse) and Parkside curve, or Hindley Crow Nest Jc (reverse) and Atherton. Anyone know of any such contingency plans?

Well I don't actually know what the plans are (or even if there are any yet!) but I would think it far more likely they terminate at Bolton for the duration. They won't go via Accy and Toddy - not only would it be a much longer journey time, but any extra trains between Todmorden and Man Vic would come up against capacity issues.

And on a slightly more personal level - what about those of us who use the stations between Blackburn and Bolton? There are quite a lot of us!

 

[PHILIPE]

If you recall SWT have loaned a 158 to Northern on a short term loan before but Northern left it at Scarborough station overnight and it was badly vandalised. That was also why when Northern loaned 150s from ATW in the past they made sure they were on diagrams which returned to Newton Heath at the end of the day.

SWT also loaned a 158 to EMT in the early days of the EMT franchise and I think they've loaned a 158 to FGW before as well.

There is a SWT 158 currently on loan to FGW and, apart from short periods, has been for about 4 years now.

 

[Eagle]

It's not the same unit being lent to them every day, so it's wrong to say that they are "loaning a unit". Also sometimes (it changes from TT to TT) the unit being lent works some SWT services and some FGW services within a single day.

It's more like sharing a unit than loaning one.

 

[Silv1983]

When the Bolton to Manchester electrification begins, and we are likely to have a couple of months of single line working through one of the Kearsley tunnels, while the other one is lowered and wired or whatever necessary - is there any plan on the horizon yet to divert most Clitheroe / Blackburn - Manchester trains round via Accrington, Burnley, Todmorden and Rochdale? It would seem a distinct possibility.

I can see them even running Bolton to Manchester via Wigan Wallgate (reverse) and Parkside curve, or Hindley Crow Nest Jc (reverse) and Atherton. Anyone know of any such contingency plans?

I suspect that the time and effort needed to open up the Farnworth Down tunnel is too much of a mammoth task - and as so much of the structure will be changed/removed - some have suggested the whole thing will be demolished and rebuilt. Single Line working is unlikely with the current infrastructure - as the current cross-overs are at Agecroft North Jct and Burnden Jct (best part of 10 miles apart). There would have to be some serious reductions in services with the slow-travelling wrong direction trains taking 10 -15 odd minutes to clear the single section. NR would have to cut crossovers in either side of the tunnel - but if they'd consider that: they'd almost certainly consider the quicker and easier task of demolishing and rebuilding the whole thing.
As for atherton line divertions - this is more likely: although the signalling sections between Salford Crescent and Crow Nest are large and capacity would be a problem I imagine.
I expect buses will run between Vic and Westhoughton - and as you said Clitheroe will go via the Tod Curve.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When the Bolton to Manchester electrification begins, and we are likely to have a couple of months of single line working through one of the Kearsley tunnels, while the other one is lowered and wired or whatever necessary - is there any plan on the horizon yet to divert most Clitheroe / Blackburn - Manchester trains round via Accrington, Burnley, Todmorden and Rochdale? It would seem a distinct possibility.

Services from Manchester, via the Copy Pit line, to Clitheroe, as stated above would surely need to reverse at Blackburn.

 

[edwin_m]

Well I don't actually know what the plans are (or even if there are any yet!) but I would think it far more likely they terminate at Bolton for the duration. They won't go via Accy and Toddy - not only would it be a much longer journey time, but any extra trains between Todmorden and Man Vic would come up against capacity issues.

And on a slightly more personal level - what about those of us who use the stations between Blackburn and Bolton? There are quite a lot of us!

If Blackburn and other trains terminate at Bolton that would release some units that could be used to strengthen the Todmorden Curve service, which I think will be slower from Blackburn to Manchester than the Bolton route but still quicker than changing to a bus at Bolton.

 

[PHILIPE]

It's not the same unit being lent to them every day, so it's wrong to say that they are "loaning a unit". Also sometimes (it changes from TT to TT) the unit being lent works some SWT services and some FGW services within a single day.

It's more like sharing a unit than loaning one.

A little pedantic post, I think. I know perfectly well what the unit does. It goes home to Salisbury Depot each night. It attaches to FGW 06 03 Salisbury to Westbury, thence to Cheltenham and works Golden Valley throughout the day before working Cheltenham to Southampton (FGW) and finishing on 21 20 Southampton to Westbury. It returns to Salisbury attaced to 22 25 ex Bristol TM (SWT). It works exclusively for FGW throughout the day and is not shared.

 

[edwin_m]

Services from Manchester, via the Copy Pit line, to Clitheroe, as stated above would surely need to reverse at Blackburn.

Yes, but no particular problem with doing that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for atherton line divertions - this is more likely: although the signalling sections between Salford Crescent and Crow Nest are large and capacity would be a problem I imagine.

I think there were only two intermediate boxes, but has the recent re-signalling added any more blocks?

 

[Darren R]

Clitheroe services are highly unlikely to be going anywhere near the Todmorden Curve during the Farnworth Tunnel works. Including the reversal at Blackburn that's anything between 90 and 100 minutes end-to-end; that would require four units for a basic hourly service, plus a further two for the Blackburn to Bolton shuttle hourly off-peak service. That's twice the number used currently on the hourly Man Vic - Clitheroe service. On the other hand, Clitheroe to Bolton is 50 minutes, requiring two units for an hourly service and freeing up a few for strengthening other services. They'll keep it simple and terminate them at Bolton.

 

[TOCDriver]

I think there were only two intermediate boxes, but has the recent re-signalling added any more blocks?

Nup, there are fewer blocks. This route would definitely have capacity problems for diverted services; except perhaps on a Sunday when only one stopper per hour works the line

 

[1D53]

Single Line working is unlikely with the current infrastructure - as the current cross-overs are at Agecroft North Jct and Burnden Jct (best part of 10 miles apart). There would have to be some serious reductions in services with the slow-travelling wrong direction trains taking 10 -15 odd minutes to clear the single section. NR would have to cut crossovers in either side of the tunnel - but if they'd consider that: they'd almost certainly consider the quicker and easier task of demolishing and rebuilding the whole thing.

There will be single line working with new crossovers either side of the tunnel.

 

[Sox]

Why does the idea of "reversing" a train fill railwaymen with apoplexy?

I know at Clitheroe, when the train disappears into the darkness in order to reverse down the opposite track (on its way back to Blackburn), a pall of solemnity descends on the waiting passengers.

Is it a cultural/industry thing, perhaps a legacy from the days of steam?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why does the idea of "reversing" a train fill railwaymen with apoplexy? I know at Clitheroe, when the train disappears into the darkness in order to reverse down the opposite track (on its way back to Blackburn), a pall of solemnity descends on the waiting passengers.

Is it a cultural/industry thing, perhaps a legacy from the days of steam?

Perhaps going back to the extremely old days of the briefest of cab protection when, if there were no turntables in the particular area, it would lead to a journey where the cab had no protection elements against inclement weather conditions when going tender first.

Just my own personal take on the matter.

 

[TOCDriver]

Why does the idea of "reversing" a train fill railwaymen with apoplexy?

I know at Clitheroe, when the train disappears into the darkness in order to reverse down the opposite track (on its way back to Blackburn), a pall of solemnity descends on the waiting passengers.

Is it a cultural/industry thing, perhaps a legacy from the days of steam?

Doesn't bother me or my friends. I can see the problem with it if you're a lazy so and so though; all that walking to the other end of the train or, god forbid, you have to actually climb out the train and walk track side to get to the other end, especially if the weather is bad.

 

[Sox]

Doesn't bother me or my friends. I can see the problem with it if you're a lazy so and so though; all that walking to the other end of the train or, god forbid, you have to actually climb out the train and walk track side to get to the other end, especially if the weather is bad.

At Clitheroe, do you not have to get out of the cab to change the points over?

 

[Inox]

I suspect that the time and effort needed to open up the Farnworth Down tunnel is too much of a mammoth task - and as so much of the structure will be changed/removed - some have suggested the whole thing will be demolished and rebuilt. Single Line working is unlikely with the current infrastructure - as the current cross-overs are at Agecroft North Jct and Burnden Jct (best part of 10 miles apart). There would have to be some serious reductions in services with the slow-travelling wrong direction trains taking 10 -15 odd minutes to clear the single section. NR would have to cut crossovers in either side of the tunnel - but if they'd consider that: they'd almost certainly consider the quicker and easier task of demolishing and rebuilding the whole thing.
As for atherton line divertions - this is more likely: although the signalling sections between Salford Crescent and Crow Nest are large and capacity would be a problem I imagine.
I expect buses will run between Vic and Westhoughton - and as you said Clitheroe will go via the Tod Curve.

or just remove the tunnels entirely and bridge the a666? that'd also remove the 50mph limit on the down?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

or just remove the tunnels entirely and bridge the a666? that'd also remove the 50mph limit on the down?

How much would be involved in terms of cubic metres removal would this entail ?

 

[lancastrian]

How much would be involved in terms of cubic metres removal would this entail ?

Although it would be a great idea to open out the Farnworth Tunnels, the basic problem is that the result would be a very deep cutting and the A666 goes over the top. I don't know what the cubic metres of earth required to be moved would be, BUt it would be a lot.

I think that the best idea, is the one that was suggested before, to close the route and dig a new double track tunnel, suitable for a modern electric railway. The length of the tunnel is, if my memory serves me well only 395 yards, so driving a new double track tunnel to replace the two old tunnels should not be that big of a problem.

On an historical note the reason for the second tunnel to be built was when in 1876 the Midland railway opened the Settle & Carlisle line, the old tunnel could handle the loading gauge of the Midlands new Pullman Cars, so a second tunnel was built large enough, and the old double track tunnel was ok, when it was only single track.

The Midland had running powers over the L&Y route from Ancoats to Hellifield, via Bolton & Blackburn.