ToD from station with no machines (or staff)?

[Mojo]

If it's needing excessed up to the minimum fare (or to the normal fare if under £12) I suppose you can do that.

I disagree. The correct procedure for someone who wishes to travel, or is travelling/has just travelled at a time in which off peak tickets are not valid is to excess it to the appropriate fare, maintaining the Railcard discount if the original ticket was discounted.

I have not seen anywhere the process for excessing a fare lower than the minimum fare to over the minimum fare documented. We were not coming off a train on which we were not valid; we were asking for the ticket to be excessed before travelling, as the queue in the ticket office was far too long.

 

[island]

I disagree. The correct procedure for someone who wishes to travel, or is travelling/has just travelled at a time in which off peak tickets are not valid is to excess it to the appropriate fare, maintaining the Railcard discount if the original ticket was discounted.

I have not seen anywhere the process for excessing a fare lower than the minimum fare to over the minimum fare documented. We were not coming off a train on which we were not valid; we were asking for the ticket to be excessed before travelling, as the queue in the ticket office was far too long.

Why did you want it excessing to a non-railcard fare then?

 

[Mojo]

Why did you want it excessing to a non-railcard fare then?

Because we wanted to board a train before 10am.

 

[reb0118]

But WHY should the passenger be made to pay again and reclaim the funds ? He has kept to his side of the contract - the ticket supplier is the one in breach of contract.
I can think of no other case whereby the innocent party in a breach of contract has to pay up again to the party who has broken the contract, then try and recover his monies after the event. If you ordered a load of groceries to be delivered from Tosca and they didn't turn up - what would your response be if Tosca told you that you had to re-order, pay again for the missing groceries then claim it back ?

You are forgetting that a computer printout can be easily copied less so a valid rail ticket issued on the correct stock

 

[Smethwickian]

You are forgetting that a computer printout can be easily copied less so a valid rail ticket issued on the correct stock

Words (almost) fail me. I refer to my earlier post on this thread.

Yet here we go again with the automatic assumption that the passenger is always wrong and always up to something nefarious - an assumption against all natural justice and the general principle that people are innocent until proven guilty.

So a train company fails to stick to advertised services or opening hours, or fails to ensure machines are working. And yet the passenger who has done everything within his/her power to pay the fare in advance gets it in the neck and has to pay out again and jump through hoops to claim it back.

And rail staff wonder why the train network gets such a bad press !

 

[reb0118]

Words (almost) fail me. I refer to my earlier post on this thread.

Yet here we go again with the automatic assumption that the passenger is always wrong and always up to something nefarious - an assumption against all natural justice and the general principle that people are innocent until proven guilty.

So a train company fails to stick to advertised services or opening hours, or fails to ensure machines are working. And yet the passenger who has done everything within his/her power to pay the fare in advance gets it in the neck and has to pay out again and jump through hoops to claim it back.

And rail staff wonder why the train network gets such a bad press !

OK Here's how it works - in theory all tickets are issued correctly, all systems work, & all passengers are honest.

In practise this, as we all know is not correct, so I'll give you this scenario:-

1) A passenger joins a train without a ticket but holds a computer printout for a pre booked advance ticket. The guard asks to see the passenger's ticket. The pax explains that he has no ticket but shows the printout. Guard apologises & explains the printout is not valid, informs passenger that he will have to purchase a new ticket to complete that stage off the journey, BUT, however that ticket will be refunded in full (with no admin fee) when the original pre booked ticket is issued at a booking office - this in theory could be done at the next station, any interchange station en-route, or destination station - whichever is most suitable for the passenger. NB the passenger does not have to miss a connection to do this. If the pax does not have the means to pay a TIR can be submitted.

Result: No loss of revenue to the railway, correct fare paid by passenger, but possibly a slight inconvenience time wise in sorting out issue.

OR

2) Same scenario as above but the Guard states "That's fine sir just sort it out at the booking office when you get off the train" However the passenger in this instance has just made up the booking reference, is a regular fraudster, & has no intention of going anywhere near a booking office at the end of the journey.

Result: Loss of revenue to the railway, a fraudster gets away with it, higher fares for you & me.

Note guards are not clairvoyant and can't decide on looks alone who is genuine & who is at it. Most passengers are honest but there is a small hardcore of persistent avoiders as we all know.

 

[Mojo]

In that case the railway should have some sort of process in place to verify the accuracy of such numbers, how they do it should not be the concern of the customer, and nor should the customer be inconvenienced.

There is an inconvenience to the passenger with what you suggest; they either have to pay up front (for which they may not have the money for) and reclaim it, or give their personal details to someone in the public arena for a UPFN, which they would then have to write a letter for to get cancelled. If this happened to me I would definitely be seeking some sort of compensation for the inconvenience, although I'd rather avoid the inconvenience in the first place.

 

[reb0118]

In that case the railway should have some sort of process in place to verify the accuracy of such numbers, how they do it should not be the concern of the customer, and nor should the customer be inconvenienced.

There is an inconvenience to the passenger with what you suggest; they either have to pay up front (for which they may not have the money for) and reclaim it, or give their personal details to someone in the public arena for a UPFN, which they would then have to write a letter for to get cancelled. If this happened to me I would definitely be seeking some sort of compensation for the inconvenience, although I'd rather avoid the inconvenience in the first place.

To be fair I tend to agree with the above when passengers turn up expecting the booking office to be open at their local station and it is not. In those cases I take brief details and direct them to the booking office at the destination. (if arriving at Edinburgh the office is before the barriers which is ideal in situations like these). We have been informed that if we submit a TIR where passengers have been unable to obtain pre booked tickets then the facts will be checked prior to issuing any demands and if the reference is genuine then no demand will be sent.

Although not a pre booked ticket example this may show you how I deal with passengers in a similar situation. Two passengers board at a staffed station where the booking office was unexpectedly closed. They wished to purchase flat fare tickets in conjunction with a newspaper offer. I apologised and explained that I was not permitted to issue these tickets on the train but that I would speak to the barrier staff at the main station to allow them through to purchase tickets at the travel centre - they intended to connect at that station onto a scenic rural route with only three services a day. They seemed happy at that, however, en route we were delayed - not by much but enough to risk missing their connection if they had to leave the platform area to purchase tickets that they should have already have had in their possession if the booking office at the origin station had been open. I therefore checked my ticket issuing machine to see if the flat fare was in the data base - it was. I tried to contact my manager to get permission to issue said ticket - to no avail. I therefore made an executive decision and issued the ticket retaining the voucher in case of any comeback. (I'm still waiting)
Result: a satisfied customer who hopefully had a great day out.

Now I know that we can't issue advance tickets on board and I stand by the comments in my previous post re the correct way to deal with these situations, however we do have discretion and hopefully the confidence to deal with passengers as individuals

 

[LexyBoy]

I would have thought an email or letter to London Midland asking why exactly they offer ToD for stations/journeys where it’s not possible wouldn’t go amiss. (Whilst it may be possible to collect from the ticket office, I don’t think it should be offered without the booking engine checking that it would be open at the requested journey time). Probably best not to mention knowing there was no possibility of collection at the time of purchase

 

[clagmonster]

In that case the railway should have some sort of process in place to verify the accuracy of such numbers, how they do it should not be the concern of the customer, and nor should the customer be inconvenienced.

I know that at present be practical in rural areas, wouldn't it be possible, particularly on trains with Wi-Fi, to provide Avantix machines with an internet connection to deal with this sort of thing. It would also allow card payments to be processed online, eliminating many problems.
In the case of non Wi-Fi operators, surely issuing guards with internet enabled telephones would enable them to check reference numbers and provide live information on the running of connections, etc. The only issue I can think is whether the connection is secure enough.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Result: No loss of revenue to the railway, correct fare paid by passenger, but possibly a slight inconvenience time wise in sorting out issue.

But that "slight invonvenience" could turn into a major one.
What if the person doesn't have the funds to buy the correct fare?

Especially when you consider that for many journeys, the correct fare that would have to be paid on the day is much much higher than the cost of the advance fare that the passenger may have initially bought. And even more so if its multiple people travelling together. It would not at all be reasonable to ask someone to pay a few hundred quid and then claim it back.

 

[island]

Especially when you consider that for many journeys, the correct fare that would have to be paid on the day is much much higher than the cost of the advance fare that the passenger may have initially bought. And even more so if its multiple people travelling together. It would not at all be reasonable to ask someone to pay a few hundred quid and then claim it back.

This is why a UPFN can be issued, and cancelled when the passenger sends in all the paperwork, and perhaps a fiver RTV sent out for their trouble.

To the previous posts, it would be a very non-trivial endeavour to equip Avantix Mobiles with SIM cards and the necessary connectivity for online transactions. Guards do get phones or BlackBerrys to look most things up when they need to, phone in authorization on cards over the floor limit, etc. All of these things need to be seen in proportion to how often they arise.

 

[wellhouse]

Last year, I booked an Advance Ticket via East Coast for collection at Malton.

There was no indication on my confirmation that this had to be via the booking office rather than a machine, and it was only by good fortune that I went to collect my ticket the day before my departure, as the booking office isn't open for all departures.