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TOCs to be fined for late running trains

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TOCs to be fined for late running trains

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...es-to-be-fined-for-late-running-services.html

Rail companies will be targeted directly with fines for the first time in a bid to stop them that cancelling trains and to punish them for late-running services under new government plans.

Ministers are introducing a penalty scheme to hold rail operators directly responsible and tackle companies who pass the blame - and fines - for late running trains on to Network Rail.

South West Trains will test the scheme as part of a trial in 2017, the Telegraph can reveal, and it will be rolled out to other operators if successful.

Companies will pay a fine when their services are between five and ten minutes late but will be rewarded if they beat targets for running on time under the plans.

Cancelled trains or those which run later than 30 minutes will also trigger penalties, which Ministers hope will prompt rail companies to improve services for passengers instead of passing the blame to Network Rail which operates the lines and maintains the track.
I don't get it. What's wrong with the current system?
 
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The Planner

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So they are questioning the TDA, DAG and delay resolution process then? only way it could potentially be solved is to make it an autonomous third party process who's decision is binding.
 

TheEdge

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That makes no sense. I'm not entirely sure how that is much (at all) different to the current system.
 

Surreytraveller

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Thought they have been 'fined' for late running trains since they were privatised in 1994? Why is this any different?
 

ComUtoR

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Soooooo. When there is a Track Circuit Failure TOC's blame NR ? I'm pretty sure (without my cynical head on) that its not a blame game and more a system that decides fault.

I'll echo the thought that isn't this pretty much already what happens ?

(cynical head back on) Is this a way of shifting more of the responsibility for the delays to the TOC and not NR ? We swallow most of it on the front line anyway. I've never heard an announcement with NR apologizing for the delay.

Running trains till the service breaks is when delays really get bad. Is it always a TOC decision to cancel a train. The cynic in me believes that when its a NR delay we run train irrespective of the delay because, well, err, NR are paying. I'd love to know the true answer.
 

TheEdge

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Also, looking at the story I don't quite understand the rationale of trying to not blame Network Rail. If there is a raft of cancellations due to a signalling fault how is that the fault of the TOC, or anyone who isn't Network Rail?
 

moggie

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Soooooo. When there is a Track Circuit Failure TOC's blame NR ? I'm pretty sure (without my cynical head on) that its not a blame game and more a system that decides fault.

Is this a way of shifting more of the responsibility for the delays to the TOC and not NR ? We swallow most of it on the front line anyway. I've never heard an announcement with NR apologizing for the delay.

But passengers are TOC customers, not NR's but in anycase who operates the PA at major stations operated by NR?

Anyway, back to main point. While a failure of NR's infrastructure is clearly the root cause of delay it is also the case that at present TOC's have no incentive to maintain a service using alternative routes where available. It is far easier to just cancel the whole service and pile up the DA minutes on NR's account.

While there are numerous practical reasons why in today's mess this happens it didn't under BR and therefore while inconvenient and expensive to TOC's there's no reason why the current attitude of TOC's should prevail given a different incentive regime. Well now they've got one.

That said, this won't be the panacea to passengers problems that government either believe it will be. For a start it will create perverse incentives when it comes to on time targets which TOC's will want to see lowered to increase their chances of bonus payments. Even if they don't exceed their lowered targets they won't at least be fined. The DA system will become even more fractious behind the scenes as the amount of money flowing from the TOC's will likely be increased leading to more challenge of attributions.

Finally, what's in this for government? At the end of the day trains will either run or not run for all of the same reasons applicable today. Passengers may see a small change but unless NR are going to have greater funds and focus on eradicating in service failures (the opposite seems the current trend) the only outcome to this as more siphoning of monies from the railway back to the treasury - and that is the REAL reason for this. If they can't get it via the fare box, they'll get it another way. I can see more franchises handing the keys back early.
 

Helvellyn

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Forget any incentive for TOCs to hold connections for late running trains, especially if the original late running train was from another TOC.
 

HH

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All this will encourage is more timetable padding. Fitting, therefore, that it is to be trialled at South West Trains...
 

D1009

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Could it possibly be that the hack who wrote this story didn't know what he or she was writing about?
 

Matt Taylor

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So what is the incentive for NR to prevent signal failures, temporary speed restrictions and general poor regulation.

Anyone would think we are intentionally delaying trains just for the hell of it.
 

The Planner

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All this will encourage is more timetable padding. Fitting, therefore, that it is to be trialled at South West Trains...

I'll press CTRL and V here then, it will encourage more public book times (PB-ing) by the TOCs, it won't pad the WTT.
 

Dr Hoo

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But passengers are TOC customers, not NR's but in any case who operates the PA at major stations operated by NR?

Anyway, back to main point. While a failure of NR's infrastructure is clearly the root cause of delay it is also the case that at present TOC's have no incentive to maintain a service using alternative routes where available. It is far easier to just cancel the whole service and pile up the DA minutes on NR's account.

The performance regimes may be a difficult read but it really isn't like that.

From the template Passenger 'Schedule 8':

"5.1 Assessment of incidents causing Minutes Delay and Cancelled Stops

(a) In assessing the cause of any Minutes Delay or Cancelled Stop,
there shall be taken into account all incidents contributing thereto
including:

(i) the extent to which each party has taken reasonable steps to avoid and/or mitigate the effects of the incidents; and
(ii) where a Restriction of Use overruns due to the start of such Restriction of Use being delayed by a late running Train, the incident(s) giving rise to that late running;

(b) The parties shall take reasonable steps to avoid and mitigate the effects of any incidents upon the Trains and any failure to take such steps shall be regarded as a separate incident."

Strangely enough with large amounts of money and reputations at stake controllers, delay attribution staff and many other railway people are expected to (and usually do) behave with professionalism, skill and maturity. It is not a case of just trying to shovel everything over the fence.
 

NSEFAN

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The whole point of the current delay attribution system is to, erm, attribute delay! It turns out that most delays can be attributed back to Network Rail, but it's only because of this system of accounting that it can be quantified. Although there are perverse incentives such as not holding connections, having an incentive for all players to minimise delay has helped improve timekeeping massively since BR. Schedule padding is seen as a bad thing by some on here, but nothing is ever 100% reliable so there needs to be some way of absorbing delay such that the service doesn't completely grind to a halt. I will also mention here that the grass-is-greener Swiss railways heavily utilise schedule padding, at the expense of capacity (since their railway isn't so heavily used as ours, they can afford to do this).

Since delay attribution shows that NR is the root cause of a lot of the delay, it should therefore be NR who get the most help in fixing it. Without the accounting that couldn't be known with any certainty. Under the proposals in the Telegraph article, which seem to punish the TOCs regardless, what incentive is there for NR to get its house in order? Although a Tory government may not like it, the railway isn't some modern, dynamic, thrusting free market thing that can choose its infrastructure supplier. There's only one infrastructure provider: NR. I'm sure we could debate for hours as to why NR has problems, but that doesn't change the fact that the TOCs are basically powerless to change its reliability.

They say everything happens for a reason, but what is the reason for directly fining the TOCs? Is this in preparation for NR to be smashed up and merged into local TOCs? Is this just a new guy in the office trying to "leave his mark" with blue-sky thinking? Is the DfT just stupid?
 

HH

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Of course there needs to be time in the timetable to absorb everyday delays, but often these are excessive. I recall sitting on an SWT train from Salisbury, where we hung about for around 4 minutes at every station and still had to wait 7 minutes for a platform at Waterloo because we were so early.
 

Stow

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Is this headline not simply about 'Delay Repay' being implemented on SWT?
 

FordFocus

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All this will encourage is more timetable padding. Fitting, therefore, that it is to be trialled at South West Trains...

Or timetabling services at a lower maximum speed. Know of one TOC that regularly does this in the event of the required traction been unavailable and a slower unit turns up instead.
 

HarleyDavidson

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What gets me is when our lot run a train 28' or 29' late on a ½ hourly service and then have the audacity to send us a "please explain" for the delay.

I'm sorry but running them like that is so wrong. To me if you go 50% over the interval between services, it's counted as a cancellation.

So if it's a 30' interval service, if it starts 16' late or more, it counts as a cancellation, because running it that late will just cause delay to other services and cause more congestion. But bring it on is all I can say.
 

Juniper Driver

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We've got some good routes where we don't have to rush about and other routes where we have to virtually have to go flat out to keep to time.You can guess which ones I prefer nowadays.I'm no glory hunter.
 

HarleyDavidson

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There's times when I like to have good blast along the main, others there's nothing like a gentle trundle along.
 
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