TOCs responding to demand

[John R]

It still is, for special events. Football or Concerts at Wembley or Cardiff for example. Glastonbury. Boardmasters only last week. A flower show in Shrewsbury, not so much.

Indeed, and there was a Billy Joel concert at the Principality Stadium the previous night which finished at 2220, and both TfW and GWR ran extra services late into the night in a rugby international type operation. That may have influenced stock positions on Saturday morning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Views on the Chiltern approach would perhaps be interesting - if they need lots of capacity, they bustitute their very quiet routes (usually the Met, because it's very quiet on a weekend, it's mostly used by commuters) to free up units.

What would people think of Northern bustituting, say, the Ormskirk-Blackpool S-Colne triangle one Saturday because of an event at the Nynex*? Would that be too controversial, or a sensible move? Or similarly for TfW, buses on the Conwy Valley to free up a 197 for a ruggex? Or if it's 195s they need, Windermere in winter?

* Sorry, I'm old, whatever that tip at Victoria is called now.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It's not really how to encourage people out of their cars and in to our railways is it? The question is, do we sit back, muddle through and just accept this sorry situation for ever, or do we try to find a way to provide services that really do encourage customers?

Exactly. I hope these things are being discussed at the highest levels of government.

 

[John R]

Exactly. I hope these things are being discussed at the highest levels of government.

The issue was raised in respect of a TfW service, which is a fully devolved issue, so not one for the Westminster govt to consider. And bear in mind that TfW is still in the middle of its fleet replacement programme, so isn’t yet in its end state position.

 

[Shrop]

The issue was raised in respect of a TfW service, which is a fully devolved issue, so not one for the Westminster govt to consider. And bear in mind that TfW is still in the middle of its fleet replacement programme, so isn’t yet in its end state position.

Yes, this was a TfW issue, but surely you're not seriously suggesting that it isn't an issue with other TOCs too? Overcrowding is rife throughout the rail network, and as such then yes it is a Government concern. After all, Government policy is to encourage sustainable travel, and rail is one of the most sustainable modes. We don't need to keep excusing poor performance by TOCs, Government or anyone else, we need to be finding ways to improve it!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The issue was raised in respect of a TfW service, which is a fully devolved issue, so not one for the Westminster govt to consider. And bear in mind that TfW is still in the middle of its fleet replacement programme, so isn’t yet in its end state position.

I respect that but in generality, as from other comments in the thread, other areas of the country are mentioned. Also, again in my opinion, when someone says that is TfW responsibility, or that is Scotrail or whatever, it is not helpful.

Yes, this was a TfW issue, but surely you're not seriously suggesting that it isn't an issue with other TOCs too? Overcrowding is rife throughout the rail network, and as such then yes it is a Government concern. After all, Government policy is to encourage sustainable travel, and rail is one of the most sustainable modes. We don't need to keep excusing poor performance by TOCs, Government or anyone else, we need to be finding ways to improve it!

 

[John R]

Helpful to whom? I was focusing on the OP’s complaint, not any subsequent digression.

 

[Idon'tKnow]

Welsh Labour's mismanagment of TfW over the last 4 years has been nothing short of a disgrace. Oh how I long for the days of ATW and 3 coaches on Manchester services!

 

[MalaiseForever]

Why can’t TfW run more than 4 car 197s between Crewe and Shrewsbury? That seems absurd, they run 5 car loco hauled sets don’t they?

 

[6Gman]

So there may well have been an option to make other trains shorter, somewhere on the network (even if it might have actually taken a bit of planning around rosters, stock location etc). Preferably ones which aren't needed to meet an exceptional demand on that day - the problem is often that no-one is prepared to put the work in for the necessary planning, because the focus isn't primarily on the customer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2024 ==

Having been a unit diagrammer in a past life I can assure you it takes more than "a bit of planning" and sometimes it just can't be done.

The Shrewsbury Flower Show is a particularly tricky one because arrival/departure will be pretty spread out across the day and in various directions so strengthening more than a token number of services would be impossible.

I will stick up for TfW by pointing out that they have in the past strengthened services for Chester Races and when Avanti decided to give up on Chester and people had to use the TfW shuttle to/from Crewe.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How long is it since Virgin Trains (or Avanti) last ran an additional 1857 (Fridays Only) "relief" service from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly just ahead of the often busy 1900 service between the two stations? (Appreciate that timings have changed in recent years).

 

[dk1]

How long is it since Virgin Trains (or Avanti) last ran an additional 1857 (Fridays Only) "relief" service from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly just ahead of the often busy 1900 service between the two stations? (Appreciate that timings have changed in recent years).

It ran on Thursday evenings too.

I suppose the relaxation of off peak tickets in the late afternoon allowed spreading of loads across other more lightly loaded departures from Euston rendering that service no longer required.

 

[stevieinselby]

A friend tells me he was travelling from Bridgend to Church Stretton on Saturday 10th August, and despite being 80 years old he had to stand all the way for this long journey. When he arrived in Church Stretton he left the packed train (the 11.38 arrival), but there were a good many more people waiting to board, so much so that some were unable to do so and were left stranded on the platform as he witnessed their frustration.
Any self-respecting TOC would have had staff who are fully aware that the Shrewsbury Flower Show takes place every year on the same weekend and attracts many people from South Wales, and yet only two coaches were provided for this train.
We are of course well past the days of having much in the way of spare coaching stock available for such occasions, however is no effort made at all these days to accommodate unusually high demand when needed?

It's common across a lot of TOCs that no extra provision is made for key local events. Northern rarely put on extra carriages when York Races are on or the Great Yorkshire Show at Harrogate, even though these are planned events that regularly lead to trains being overcrowded. The biggest problem is that a lot of TOCs don't have enough spare stock to easily roster additional units ... and if it can't be done easily then it won't be done at all because everything is run on a shoestring budget. It can be particularly difficult when there might be lots of extra trains needed rather than a local shuttle – by my reckoning there are 8 diagrams working the Cardiff to Manchester route, so in this instance it wouldn't just be doubling up one train, but potentially doubling up all 8 sets, and obviously the more extra units you need to find the harder it is going to be.

 

[Shrop]

It's common across a lot of TOCs that no extra provision is made for key local events. Northern rarely put on extra carriages when York Races are on or the Great Yorkshire Show at Harrogate, even though these are planned events that regularly lead to trains being overcrowded. The biggest problem is that a lot of TOCs don't have enough spare stock to easily roster additional units ... and if it can't be done easily then it won't be done at all because everything is run on a shoestring budget. It can be particularly difficult when there might be lots of extra trains needed rather than a local shuttle – by my reckoning there are 8 diagrams working the Cardiff to Manchester route, so in this instance it wouldn't just be doubling up one train, but potentially doubling up all 8 sets, and obviously the more extra units you need to find the harder it is going to be.

Why would you need to double up on 8 sets? Just one or two peak time trains for this event would be enough, but I do wonder how much it was even considered, even if it was dismissed as impractical?

 

[The exile]

Why would you need to double up on 8 sets? Just one or two peak time trains for this event would be enough, but I do wonder how much it was even considered, even if it was dismissed as impractical?

As post #40 explains, there is no obvious point of maximum demand for the Shrewsbury Flower Show (though there are no doubt a few obvious points of minimum demand). As with any leisure event, last minute factors, such as a change in the weather, can completely alter traffic flows. The ones where it’s less excusable are large scale ticketed events like concerts where start and end times are known (roughly) - though there should also be more onus placed on the organiser if large scale events to ensure that environmentally friendly crowd dispersal is part of the planning process.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Just one or two peak time trains for this event would be enough

Once again, the diagram you are complaining about was doubled up later in the day.

The problem with these types of events- flower shows, agricultural shows, etc- is that there isn't really a period of peak demand. Some people will get there early and leave early, some will get there late and leave late, some will get there early and leave late, etc etc. Your example shows this well: the show opened at 11am yet this was a busy train, and the preceding two trains that would have got passengers there for the show opening were both 3-car.

We something similar every year with things like the Lincoln Christmas Market, people travel to and from the event throughout the day. Even with the best will in the world you can't strengthen everything.

Sports events and concerts are much easier to plan for, with a defined start time and end time and customers who will, in general, arrive when it starts and leave when it finishes.

Indeed, and there was a Billy Joel concert at the Principality Stadium the previous night which finished at 2220, and both TfW and GWR ran extra services late into the night in a rugby international type operation. That may have influenced stock positions on Saturday morning.

That makes a lot of sense, particularly as to why quite a few morning services out of Cardiff seemed to pick units up at Chester, Crewe, or Shrewsbury.

 

[30907]

Why would you need to double up on 8 sets? Just one or two peak time trains for this event would be enough, but I do wonder how much it was even considered, even if it was dismissed as impractical?

Purely an observation from the reported workings:
the 0530 L/H set from Swansea arrived at MAN as a 2-car. That's one substitution (looks suspiciously like a set swap at Cardiff) which will have fouled up a planned working.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Being a Saturday, a 5-car Mk4 set was sitting idle at Holyhead all day (and the Sunday).
This train used to help out on summer Saturdays by running Holyhead-Crewe shuttles.
These days it only ventures out at weekends when there's rugby at Cardiff.

 

[Shrop]

Being a Saturday, a 5-car Mk4 set was sitting idle at Holyhead all day (and the Sunday).
This train used to help out on summer Saturdays by running Holyhead-Crewe shuttles.
These days it only ventures out at weekends when there's rugby at Cardiff.

Thanks for that, that's interesting. So how do all those who say that stock simply wasn't available answer this? Was it just "too complicated" to bring this stock into use on that day? Of course it would have required the use of train paths and staffing etc, but there's a lot of bad feeling etc. generated by not making the effort needed. Was the possibility of using this stock properly considered I wonder?

 

[JonathanH]

So how do all those who say that stock simply wasn't available answer this? Was it just "too complicated" to bring this stock into use on that day?

It might not be in use, but it can only go out on a working that starts in Holyhead, given that is where it finishes the previous day. The train being discussed as under resourced started the day in Carmarthen. Even if it could be used, what additional service should it run?

 

[Shrop]

It might not be in use, but it can only go out on a working that starts in Holyhead, given that is where it finishes the previous day. The train being discussed as under resourced started the day in Carmarthen. Even if it could be used, what additional service should it run?

"it can only go out on a working that starts in Holyhead"? As pointed out in Post #49, "it only ventures out when there's rugby in Cardiff" - so how many of these rugby workings start in Holyhead?

As for "what additional service should it run", well without being privy to all the necessary staff and stock scheduling I could only guess, which would set me up to be shot down by those who have that info readily to hand. However, I strongly suspect that the saying "Where there's a will there's a way" has potential here!

 

[Bald Rick]

"it can only go out on a working that starts in Holyhead"? As pointed out in Post #49, "it only ventures out when there's rugby in Cardiff" - so how many of these rugby workings start in Holyhead?

err, all of them. They run North Wales to the Rugby in Cardiff before the game, stable there, and then run back in the evening.

 

[Shrop]

err, all of them. They run North Wales to the Rugby in Cardiff before the game, stable there, and then run back in the evening.

Apologies, I've edited my post slightly, and I have to pop out for a while. I'll come back later, hopefully with something constructive!

 

[30907]

"it can only go out on a working that starts in Holyhead"? As pointed out in Post #49, "it only ventures out when there's rugby in Cardiff" - so how many of these rugby workings start in Holyhead?

As for "what additional service should it run", well without being privy to all the necessary staff and stock scheduling I could only guess, which would set me up to be shot down by those who have that info readily to hand. However, I strongly suspect that the saying "Where there's a will there's a way" has potential here!

Its other use IIRC has been to run relief services along the N Wales coast, which ISTR suffers from severe overcrowding on Saturdays, and seems a good use of it. (I don't think it can keep to normal DMU timings?

Meanwhile on 10 August 2 of the 4 loco-hauled sets on the Manchester run were out of action for all or part of the day. One was covered by a 3-car set all day, the other became a 2-car set on departure from Cardiff (see #47), but the l/h was in action again in the afternoon.
Maybe TfW need to reckon on another standby unit to cover for the l/hs, but that costs money as we know.

 

[Shrop]

Its other use IIRC has been to run relief services along the N Wales coast, which ISTR suffers from severe overcrowding on Saturdays, and seems a good use of it. (I don't think it can keep to normal DMU timings?

Meanwhile on 10 August 2 of the 4 loco-hauled sets on the Manchester run were out of action for all or part of the day. One was covered by a 3-car set all day, the other became a 2-car set on departure from Cardiff (see #47), but the l/h was in action again in the afternoon.
Maybe TfW need to reckon on another standby unit to cover for the l/hs, but that costs money as we know.

Thanks for that, it's hard to know all the facts from outside the industry. When I was working in road traffic, we were often challenged with resolving complaints about parking and speeding (among many other things). We tried and tested many ways to address the complaints, but one thing we could guarantee was that plenty of people would give us their opinions, and for the most part these opinions were only telling us things we already knew.

I don't doubt for one moment that many contributors to this forum, quite possibly most of them throughout every thread, have previously expressed views on other people's driving at some point, and understandably so. However, we tried hard not to dismiss views offered to us as simply being from "armchair experts" (the contributor who made this comment will know who they are ), because just occasionally they had merit. Yes, of course well over 90% of views expressed really were from people who were just that, however this wasn't a reason to dismiss them out of hand.

To conclude, I hope that for next year the re-positioning of stock in advance for this event might at least be considered, including perhaps finding a way for a 5 coach set to end up in Carmarthen instead of Holyhead, including that this might involve asking passengers to change trains somewhere en route the day before. Perhaps it was considered this year, but when the responses to my question have suggested that spare stock didn't exist, which then changed to it existing but being in the wrong place, it does make me want to question things. Just as most contributors to this forum doubtless question many road traffic situations, even though there are many professionals already addressing them.

 

[30907]

Flattered to be called an industry insider, as I don't think 2 years of handling telephone enquiries 40+ years ago makes me that
I am a timetable nerd, though, and I can interpret the detail on public sources like RealTimeTrains.
The hauled train has similar standard class capacity to a 3-car class 19x, so the swap you suggest is probably not worth doing, certainly for one day a year. Making the diesel locos work better, on the other hand....!

 

[Bald Rick]

However, we tried hard not to dismiss views offered to us as simply being from "armchair experts" (the contributor who made this comment will know who they are ), because just occasionally they had merit.

Reprimand acknowledged and accepted!

Sincere apologies if my posts came ober as somewhat holier than thou. Not my intention; I just get a little frustrated with the near endless streams of what appears to be criticism on these boards of the people who work very hard every day to deliver a service for our passengers. Sometimes my filters don’t work properly!

Of course sometimes mistakes are made, but if anyone on this forum who has (or has had) a job can claim they have never made a mistake at work, then I’ll put up a mirror and show you a liar.

 

[Shrop]

Reprimand acknowledged and accepted!

Sincere apologies if my posts came ober as somewhat holier than thou. Not my intention; I just get a little frustrated with the near endless streams of what appears to be criticism on these boards of the people who work very hard every day to deliver a service for our passengers. Sometimes my filters don’t work properly!

Of course sometimes mistakes are made, but if anyone on this forum who has (or has had) a job can claim they have never made a mistake at work, then I’ll put up a mirror and show you a liar.

Well Mr Rick, let me say first of all that in general I have a great deal of respect for your comments and your knowledge, so it was with a little trepidation that I challenged your comment. Your acceptance of it is appreciated - if ever the chance arises I would enjoy a drink with you, when I hope that much constructive comment would ensue!

 

[Meerkat]

Compulsory reservations would solve the problem of extreme overcrowding and people left on platforms, and enable yield pricing to spread the demand bulge out.
I will now retreat into my bunker and await the incoming

 

[Trainbike46]

Compulsory reservations would solve the problem of extreme overcrowding and people left on platforms, and enable yield pricing to spread the demand bulge out.
I will now retreat into my bunker and await the incoming

I mean, that is a choice you could make, but realistically, who would consider that acceptable for a regional service? I certainly would not!

from what I hear, TfW has a lot of rather full trains nowadays, and the small number of their services I have used where all very busy.

As others have pointed out, strengthening or running a relief for one service can often be done, as evidenced by things like the rugby specials, etc. upthread.
Strengthening many services, on the other hand, is rather harder, because TfW, or any operator for that matter, doesn't have loads of extra stock standing around. Some more stock is joining the TfW services in the near future, so that should help with general overcrowding problems.

To some extend, we may just have to accept that for big events rail services will be very busy, though ideally they wouldn't end up leaving people behind.

It's clear that a lot of people in the railway work very hard to deliver a good service, and tbh in general most of my problems are with the government, rather than the operators