TOCs responding to demand

[Shrop]

A friend tells me he was travelling from Bridgend to Church Stretton on Saturday 10th August, and despite being 80 years old he had to stand all the way for this long journey. When he arrived in Church Stretton he left the packed train (the 11.38 arrival), but there were a good many more people waiting to board, so much so that some were unable to do so and were left stranded on the platform as he witnessed their frustration.
Any self-respecting TOC would have had staff who are fully aware that the Shrewsbury Flower Show takes place every year on the same weekend and attracts many people from South Wales, and yet only two coaches were provided for this train.
We are of course well past the days of having much in the way of spare coaching stock available for such occasions, however is no effort made at all these days to accommodate unusually high demand when needed?

 

[gazthomas]

Transport for Wales!

 

[JonathanH]

Any self-respecting TOC would have had staff who are fully aware that the Shrewsbury Flower Show takes place every year on the same weekend and attracts many people from South Wales, and yet only two coaches were provided for this train.

Other events will be taking place elsewhere on the network on the same day.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It was a 2-car 197 (197 005) working a Milford Haven-Manchester Piccadilly service.
It did at least run, though it was 19 late at Church Stretton and was 35 late at Wilmslow where it terminated short of Manchester.
On its return journey (to Tenby) it picked up a second unit (197 042) to become 4-car towards Cardiff.

Realtime Trains | 1W16 0703 Milford Haven to Wilmslow | 10/08/2024

Real-time train running information for 1W16 0703 departure from Milford Haven to Wilmslow on 10/08/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Travelling with TfW is a bit of a lottery with a variety of rolling stock - some trains on that route are 5-car.
There simply is not enough stock for all trains to be 4-car or more.
TfW has more/better trains this year than last, but it will be next summer before the planned service operates regularly.

 

[Shrop]

Other events will be taking place elsewhere on the network on the same day.

I don't doubt that, but I do doubt that there were many places where passengers were physically unable to board due to overcrowding. My concern is that loadings for this service were known about well in advance, since they have been happening every year on this date for many decades.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2024 ==

It was a 2-car 197 (197 005) working a Milford Haven-Manchester Piccadilly service.
It did at least run, though it was 19 late at Church Stretton and was 35 late at Wilmslow where it terminated short of Manchester.
On its return journey (to Tenby) it picked up a second unit (197 042) to become 4-car towards Cardiff.

Realtime Trains | 1W16 0703 Milford Haven to Wilmslow | 10/08/2024

Real-time train running information for 1W16 0703 departure from Milford Haven to Wilmslow on 10/08/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Travelling with TfW is a bit of a lottery with a variety of rolling stock - some trains on that route are 5-car.
There simply is not enough stock for all trains to be 4-car or more.
TfW has more/better trains this year than last, but it will be next summer before the planned service operates regularly.

Thanks, yes the 5-car trains (Class 67 hauled) are much better and a great deal more comfortable, as well as being much more liked by passengers. And you're right about travelling with TfW being a bit of a lottery, my concern is that since this situation has been happening every year on this date for many decades, then one would hope that TfW might afford a bit more respect for their customers than leaving the train formations purely to chance. If they really didn't know in advance about these loadings, then one might very justifiably question why not!

 

[Tetchytyke]

one would hope that TfW might afford a bit more respect for their customers than leaving the train formations purely to chance

The formations aren't "purely to chance" but TfW are short of rolling stock generally. If they haven't got another 197 to use then they can't add a 197 to the train.

As it happens, that train did gain another 197 at Crewe northbound (197042 came off the Chester shuttle) for its run into Manchester, although due to the delays it was turned around at Wilmslow.

 

[Shrop]

The formations aren't "purely to chance" but TfW are short of rolling stock generally.

When you say the formations aren't "purely to chance", are you suggesting that TfW made a choice about what stock to use?

 

[The Planner]

When you say the formations aren't "purely to chance", are you suggesting that TfW made a choice about what stock to use?

Of course they did.

 

[Shrop]

Of course they did.

So they chose to use a two coach set, whilst having many years of previous experience that two coaches couldn't possibly cope with the passenger demand on that day? That is clearly not customer-friendly, or is this something which can be blamed on someone else?

 

[JonathanH]

So they chose to use a two coach set, whilst having many years of previous experience that two coaches couldn't possibly cope with the passenger demand on that day? That is clearly not customer-friendly, or is this something which can be blamed on someone else?

That clearly depends on what ended up at Carmarthen the night before and anticipation of where the first place was that they could add a further two car unit.

It ran as a three car on 3 August.

 

[Tetchytyke]

When you say the formations aren't "purely to chance", are you suggesting that TfW made a choice about what stock to use?

Another thread suggests that Shrewsbury to Manchester is restricted to 4 cars on the 197s. So if the train is scheduled to collect a 2-car at Crewe it can’t be a 3-car from Cardiff.

CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

They cartainly can be rough riding. Though they are miles ahead of either a 150 or a pair of 153s for the South Wales to Manchester trains. Oh absolutely miles! It kind of bugs me that TFW haven’t even acknowledged the 197 rough riding. Even if they just said “yes we are aware but there’s...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[JamesT]

So they chose to use a two coach set, whilst having many years of previous experience that two coaches couldn't possibly cope with the passenger demand on that day? That is clearly not customer-friendly, or is this something which can be blamed on someone else?

If you put longer trains on these services, in the absence of spare rolling stock it implies you have to make other services shorter. So are you merely shifting which set of customers feel the pain?

 

[Bald Rick]

So they chose to use a two coach set, whilst having many years of previous experience that two coaches couldn't possibly cope with the passenger demand on that day? That is clearly not customer-friendly, or is this something which can be blamed on someone else?

The choice was almost certainly 2 coaches, or no coaches. Which would you prefer?

 

[Shrop]

The choice was almost certainly 2 coaches, or no coaches. Which would you prefer?

That sounds incredibly defeatist, or maybe I'm just old fashioned in hoping for an sufficient provision of accommodation. Suppose you were to turn up at an airport for a holiday abroad, your flight was over-subscribed, and you were told there was no room for you. Imagine you are then advised that the choice was either to take the other passengers or to take no-one at all, would you just shrug and say "Ah yes, I see what you mean"? Or would you be hoping for better preparation from the service provider?

 

[Bald Rick]

That sounds incredibly defeatist, or maybe I'm just old fashioned in hoping for an sufficient provision of accommodation. Suppose you were to turn up at an airport for a holiday abroad, your flight was over-subscribed, and you were told there was no room for you. Imagine you are then advised that the choice was either to take the other passengers or to take no-one at all, would you just shrug and say "Ah yes, I see what you mean"? Or would you be hoping for better preparation from the service provider?

I didnt say i was happy with the position. But which would you prefer, a 2 coach train or no train?

 

[Harpers Tate]

Well, if you are one of those left on the platform unable to board there may as well have been no train. Indeed, in the context of being able to claim compensation or refund, no train may even be better.

This is not unique to TfW. Northern have, for years, done precisely the same and with the same outcome when entirely predictable events (Lincoln Xmas market, Sheffield Tramlines and so on) occur. No doubt it's similarly applicable elsewhere on the network.

 

[dosxuk]

That sounds incredibly defeatist, or maybe I'm just old fashioned in hoping for an sufficient provision of accommodation. Suppose you were to turn up at an airport for a holiday abroad, your flight was over-subscribed, and you were told there was no room for you. Imagine you are then advised that the choice was either to take the other passengers or to take no-one at all, would you just shrug and say "Ah yes, I see what you mean"? Or would you be hoping for better preparation from the service provider?

While this scenario is unlikely to happen with a holiday charter flight, it does happen all the time with scheduled flights. If an airline has to swap an aircraft for some reason, and only smaller versions are immediately available, they don't just throw in the towel and cancel the flight / delay everyone, they'll often just send the smaller aircraft and unload some passengers and rebook them onto other flights. Better to pay the delay compensation for a handful of people rather than the entire flight.

 

[Shrop]

I didnt say i was happy with the position. But which would you prefer, a 2 coach train or no train?

It's very sad that it has come to this choice. You'll be fully aware of course, that in years gone by, high demand would be addressed not only by the provision of extra coaches, but often by an additional "relief" train. Today it's all about efficiency, the needs of business, spare coaches are regarded with scorn as "capital tied up" etc. etc. Yes, the way of the modern world, but this is accompanied by a sharp slap in the face for customers.
It's not really how to encourage people out of their cars and in to our railways is it? The question is, do we sit back, muddle through and just accept this sorry situation for ever, or do we try to find a way to provide services that really do encourage customers?

 

[Bald Rick]

You'll be fully aware of course, that in years gone by, high demand would be addressed not only by the provision of extra coaches, but often by an additional "relief" train.

It still is, for special events. Football or Concerts at Wembley or Cardiff for example. Glastonbury. Boardmasters only last week. A flower show in Shrewsbury, not so much.

 

[Shrop]

It still is, for special events. Football or Concerts at Wembley or Cardiff for example. Glastonbury. Boardmasters only last week. A flower show in Shrewsbury, not so much.

An extra train for the Shrewsbury Flower Show was never expected, even though huge numbers attend from South Wales. However, some preparation, ie a train consist of at least 4 coaches would have been reasonable, and surely not that hard to arrange given the prior knowledge.

 

[The exile]

So they chose to use a two coach set, whilst having many years of previous experience that two coaches couldn't possibly cope with the passenger demand on that day? That is clearly not customer-friendly, or is this something which can be blamed on someone else?

No - they allocated a particular two car set, possibly because only two car sets were available in the right place at the right time. An example from a neighbouring TOC - I recently had the pleasure of a 2 car 165 on a Cardiff - Portsmouth run instead of the booked 5. Yes, GWR “chose” to run it as 2 cars but the immediate alternatives were a) cancel entirely , b) continue to try to couple the 3 car set on for an indeterminate time (they’d been trying for about 10 minutes) or c) retrain everyone from the 2 car, shunt it out of the way (across the Temple Meads throat in the peak) of the 3 car, load everyone onto the 3 car. What would you have done?

 

[Shrop]

If you put longer trains on these services, in the absence of spare rolling stock it implies you have to make other services shorter. So are you merely shifting which set of customers feel the pain?

So there may well have been an option to make other trains shorter, somewhere on the network (even if it might have actually taken a bit of planning around rosters, stock location etc). Preferably ones which aren't needed to meet an exceptional demand on that day - the problem is often that no-one is prepared to put the work in for the necessary planning, because the focus isn't primarily on the customer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2024 ==

No - they allocated a particular two car set, possibly because only two car sets were available in the right place at the right time. An example from a neighbouring TOC - I recently had the pleasure of a 2 car 165 on a Cardiff - Portsmouth run instead of the booked 5. Yes, GWR “chose” to run it as 2 cars but the immediate alternatives were a) cancel entirely , b) continue to try to couple the 3 car set on for an indeterminate time (they’d been trying for about 10 minutes) or c) retrain everyone from the 2 car, shunt it out of the way (across the Temple Meads throat in the peak) of the 3 car, load everyone onto the 3 car. What would you have done?

Plan further ahead. Easy to say I know, but we need greater pressure on Government to support the provision of stock etc. We're too ready to just roll over when faced with Government saying the money isn't there. How is the new Government doing in supporting our railways I wonder, they surely can't be less supportive than the previous Govt can they?

And yes, I had the pleasure of standing from Newport to Bath on a Portsmouth train not so long ago, after which a few seats did become free. It seems that this is just another of many, many routes which suffer from stock shortages. Surely good reasons from all around the country to pressure the new Government into recognising large scale failure, to provide services which encourage the sustainable travel that Govt likes to advocate?

 

[JonathanH]

So there may well have been an option to make other trains shorter, somewhere on the network (even if it might have actually taken a bit of planning around rosters, stock location etc).

There might have been an option to make other trains on the Marches line shorter. How many trains at Carmarthen on a Saturday morning and what do they work?

 

[Shrop]

There might have been an option to make other trains on the Marches line shorter. How many trains at Carmarthen on a Saturday morning and what do they work?

I'm not sure how you expect me to know the answer to this from outside the industry

 

[Sonic1234]

to provide services which encourage the sustainable travel that Govt likes to advocate?

But arguable if they actually want - driving is highly taxed.

 

[Shrop]

There might have been an option to make other trains on the Marches line shorter. How many trains at Carmarthen on a Saturday morning and what do they work?

Sorry - wrong keystroke sending the above #24 too quickly. Whenever I've been privy to sufficient information, there has usually been a way to resolve the situation that just hasn't been thought of.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But arguable if they actually want - driving is highly taxed.

Certainly the Government have got themselves in a corner with that one. Trouble is (I worked it out once) you'd be looking at base rate income tax or VAT being nearer 30% to move that taxation away from road use.

 

[Shrop]

But arguable if they actually want - driving is highly taxed.

A very simplistic view, but one which many have. Costs to drivers are highly skewed with some paying far more than their journey deserves, while others pay far less. My preference would be that a working party could be set up to address a myriad of road and rail issues, with the objectives of making things fairer, encouraging sustainable travel, recognising and addressing the many shortfalls of both industries etc. etc. Many answers are there, it just needs the interest at a high level, coupled with a way to encourage a supportive media.

 

[Tetchytyke]

However, some preparation, ie a train consist of at least 4 coaches would have been reasonable, and surely not that hard to arrange given the prior knowledge.

It collected two carriages at Crewe going northbound heading into Manchester, and then kept them for later journeys.

If it had been a 3-car or 2x 2-car at Cardiff it couldn't have collected the 2-car at Crewe.

If the additional 2-car unit wasn't in Cardiff because it was in Chester then they can't add it at Cardiff. And if the usual plan is to move it to Cardiff by adding it to a formation then if they can't add it to that formation then everything is wrong for Sunday and Monday.

TfW remain short of units, which is why you see 2x 153 on a fairly regular basis on Manchester-Cardiff.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think the reality is that the industry has been managed to the point that there is very little excess capacity, if any at all, available. This makes it very difficult to accommodate large out of course passenger flows. It's easier on some TOCs than others. Thameslink, Southern, South Western Railway, for instance having been set up to deal with large commuters flows and being able to operate 8 - 12 car trains can just throw out their large trains when there's an event on and just need to worry about a bit of crowd management at crunch points. But having trains that can hoover up 1,000+ people rocking up (often at a high frequency) makes it easy (comparatively).

But, for the likes of TfW or Northern its much harder to deal with large crowds because a lot of the time they've been set up with the standard train length being two or three cars formed from a single unit with the odd doubled up formation. However, Northern at least, do try where they can to accommodate major events (and not so major). For instance when there's international cricket on at Headingly they will run additional services between Leeds and Horsforth (where there's a turn back siding) calling at Burley Park and Headingly. Northern do run football specials as and when they can for local derbies (Sunderland and Middlesbrough is an example local to me that usually generates a special service). Sometimes they try but are foiled by events. There was recently a food festival on at Saltburn and Northern had planned to have two four car sets out on the Bishop Auckland - Saltburn circuit however due to a unit failure they had to shorten one of the sets down to two car. Needless to say the trains were extremely over crowded as a result leaving many passengers behind at several stops. But they did try.

TfW of course have it even worse as they just don't currently have enough units full stop!

But accommodating unusually large flows of passengers will always be tricky when for thirty+ years the railway has been managed towards having the available train capacity as closely matched to the typical loadings as possible which makes it extremely hard to ever really match the demand when something does crop up. Even in my Saltburn food festival example the planned strengthening only covered two of the days three diagrams between Saltburn and Bishop Auckland so there was always going to be one two car set running around.

As @Bald Rick suggested I don't think anyone is happy with this situation but it is where we find ourselves and the TOCs are just having to do the best they can with the limited resources available. I'm certain TfW control would have been quite happy to run trains to Shrewsbury on that day as at least four-car sets if they'd had the units available to do so. Just as I'm sure Northern up here would have been happy to run every train between Saltburn and Bishop Auckland as four-car sets if they'd had the units to do so.