TOCs requesting fulfilment method changes from Trainline

[Starmill]

If Mr X doesn't check that he has actually received what he's paid for, that's is a Mr X problem rather than an anybody else problem.

Let's just say that, with this approach, I'm pleased I don't have to rely on your customer service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2024 ==

That's funny, because I regularly see a button on the Trainline app marked as "download ticket" which people press and after a moment (or more if the data signal is poor), once the ticket has downloaded, changes to "view ticket".

It does that if you create a trainline booking not on the device you try to show it on. I'm not sure how else that could work.

 

[Hadders]

If Mr X doesn't check that he has actually received what he's paid for, that's is a Mr X problem rather than an anybody else problem.

So the fulfilment method the customer's used for years suddeenly changes without warning. The email confirmation looks the same as normal on a cursory inspection, it's only when you read the 'small print' that you discover the ticket has to be collected.

THIS is The Railway in 2024.

Agreed. The scenario I gave could easily criminalise a customer. Yes, the railway has a problem with fare evasion but it doesn't think about the impact their actions could have on honest passengers.

That's funny, because I regularly see a button on the Trainline app marked as "download ticket" which people press and after a moment (or more if the data signal is poor), once the ticket has downloaded, changes to "view ticket".

There is no requirement to use an app, or to download a ticket. Although in the majority of situations an app will be used and the scenario I've described is a bit of an edge case I bet no-one has even thought about how this might impact a genuine passenger and how they could inadvertently become criminalised.

 

[sheff1]

I challenge you to find a split that includes Cardiff Central to Cardiff Queen Street as one of the portions.

I found one in a couple of mins. Gloucester to Cardiff Q St dep 1227 next Tuesday. Split at Central is the option offered on Trainsplit.
Exactly the same with anyone travelling on the same train from Derby and Birmingham - probably from other calling points as well but couldn’t be bothered to check

So 3 itineraries on just that one train with every chance of double figures if all calling points do indeed have the same split. Very much doubt if that is only train arriving at Central that day where this applies.

 

[Starmill]

I found one in a couple of mins. Gloucester to Cardiff Q St dep 1227 next Tuesday. Split at Central is the option offered on Trainsplit.
Exactly the same with anyone travelling on the same train from Derby and Birmingham - probably from other calling points as well but couldn’t be bothered to check

So 3 itineraries on just that one train with every chance of double figures if all calling points do indeed have the same split. Very much doubt if that is only train arriving at Central that day where this applies.

There are going to be absolutely countless Advance tickets where there is no "and TfW" or "and Connections" through ticket availabile, so a split such as this one will always save a meaningful amount.

 

[Adam Williams]

I found one in a couple of mins. Gloucester to Cardiff Q St dep 1227 next Tuesday. Split at Central is the option offered on Trainsplit.
Exactly the same with anyone travelling on the same train from Derby and Birmingham - probably from other calling points as well but couldn’t be bothered to check

So 3 itineraries on just that one train with every chance of double figures if all calling points do indeed have the same split. Very much doubt if that is only train arriving at Central that day where this applies.

And this is the problem with messing with the RCS data for "revenue protection" purposes - it has a much wider negative impact than TOC staff (some [most?] of whom aren't involved in online retail at all) might think it does.

 

[sheff1]

There are going to be absolutely countless Advance tickets where there is no "and TfW" or "and Connections" through ticket availabile, so a split such as this one will always save a meaningful amount.

Indeed. The “challenge” I took up must be one of the easiest ever set.

 

[signed]

Have you heard of split ticketing? It only takes one fare in a ticket-set of 20+ that's ToD only for the entire journey to need to be ToD only.

Why though? What prevents to just have that exact part as a TOD and then eTicket the rest

I understand that for the average consumer that's a good way for them to not forget to get the ToD, but that sounds just counter productive for anyone that knows

 

[Starmill]

Why though? What prevents to just have that exact part as a TOD and then eTicket the rest

I understand that for the average consumer that's a good way for them to not forget to get the ToD, but that sounds just counter productive for anyone that knows

Nothing prevents it in the "hard" sense, because trainline actually do exactly this. It's just they shouldn't do.

 

[MrJeeves]

Nothing prevents it in the "hard" sense, because trainline actually do exactly this. It's just they shouldn't do.

I don't think Trainline do partial ToD and E-Ticket?

They provide the option of E-Ticket + ToD, but my understanding is that simply lets you collect the entire booking as ToD, after which the E-Tickets are then cancelled.

 

[Haywain]

Why though? What prevents to just have that exact part as a TOD and then eTicket the rest

Accreditation rules say that only one fulfilment method can be used per booking, so, if one leg of a split is ToD the whole booking must be (see also PlusBus).

 

[Mainline421]

My opinion but the only exceptions to the rule should be i) is it via London Underground or ii) is it via Merseyrail.

...or the many other carriers without the ability to check e-tickets presumably.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think Trainline do partial ToD and E-Ticket?

They provide the option of E-Ticket + ToD, but my understanding is that simply lets you collect the entire booking as ToD, after which the E-Tickets are then cancelled.

Sadly I've seen a Manchester Piccadilly to Heathrow T4 booking that did exactly that.

 

[signed]

Accreditation rules say that only one fulfilment method can be used per booking

I need to remember that logic don't really exist in ticketing then

 

[island]

Surely this is moot though, because the customer's app will always download the ticket for them automatically when they check it out? I only know of one app that doesn't do so and trainline, the current subject, most certainly does.

I don't use Trainline so wouldn't know, but I do know that tickets can also be bought through the browser.

 

[185]

...or the many other carriers without the ability to check e-tickets presumably.

Those carriers technology merely requires the addition of a simple Android app nowadays - this should not be an issue in 2024.

 

[talldave]

You don’t have to download an e-ticket. It’s a pdf attachment to every e-ticket I’ve ever purchased.

If you use a web based email service then you do have to download attachments and if you don't have an internet connection when you want to do that, you're stuck.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Nor have I ever clicked the download button on my email app to access a PDF.

iPhone 12 Pro, iOS 17.6.1:

 

[OscarH]

That's funny, because I regularly see a button on the Trainline app marked as "download ticket" which people press and after a moment (or more if the data signal is poor), once the ticket has downloaded, changes to "view ticket".

Even with the awful mobile signal on much of the network, I'm sure that's quicker than trying to convince an S&B TVM to print a ToD first time

 

[Starmill]

iPhone 12 Pro, iOS 17.6.1:

If you've chosen to use your email app, or not use it in the app, in that way, then that's obviously your call. I'm pretty sure mine has an upper file size limit after which it wouldn't download the file without such a prompt, although I have never needed it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2024 ==

If you use a web based email service then you do have to download attachments and if you don't have an internet connection when you want to do that, you're stuck.

If you make things awkward for yourself, things are more awkward for you. What a surprising conclusion.

 

[talldave]

If you've chosen to use your email app, or not use it in the app, in that way, then that's obviously your call. I'm pretty sure mine has an upper file size limit after which it wouldn't download the file without such a prompt, although I have never needed it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2024 ==


If you make things awkward for yourself, things are more awkward for you. What a surprising conclusion.

I'd say more flexible, particularly when travelling. It enables access from any internet connected browser on any device and bypasses the total dependency on one device's battery status.

 

[Starmill]

I'd say more flexible, particularly when travelling. It enables access from any internet connected browser on any device and bypasses the total dependency on one device's battery status.

Using the email app doesn't preclude logging in to the browser-based client on a back up device though.

 

[Haywain]

Using the email app doesn't preclude logging in to the browser-based client on a back up device though.

Your focus on apps is all very well, but there are good reasons for not using apps. Trainsplit, for example, has more functionality through the website.

 

[Starmill]

Your focus on apps is all very well, but there are good reasons for not using apps. Trainsplit, for example, has more functionality through the website.

You can all keep posting an endless stream of what ifs and exceptions if you like, I'm not bothered. But I don't see how any of them changes anything. Nobody above has made the claim that everyone uses etickets in this way. For example, lots of people just use the ticket machine at the station or pay the train conductor. Does that mean nobody is in the situation @Hadders is pointing out?

 

[Haywain]

You can all keep posting an endless stream of what ifs and exceptions if you like, I'm not bothered. But I don't see how any of them changes anything. Nobody above has made the claim that everyone uses etickets in this way. For example, lots of people just use the ticket machine at the station or pay the train conductor. Does that mean nobody is in the situation @Hadders is pointing out?

I am reponding to the tangent that @Hadders started with the claim that eTickets don't have to be downloaded, which you followed up with your comments about using apps.

 

[Starmill]

I am reponding to the tangent that @Hadders started with the claim that eTickets don't have to be downloaded, which you followed up with your comments about using apps.

And nobody every claimed everyone uses apps to buy and claim their tickets. Indeed the post you quoted of mine is about using email to display the ticket, not an app for buying tickets.

 

[Lewisham2221]

If you've chosen to use your email app, or not use it in the app, in that way, then that's obviously your call. I'm pretty sure mine has an upper file size limit after which it wouldn't download the file without such a prompt, although I have never needed it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2024 ==


If you make things awkward for yourself, things are more awkward for you. What a surprising conclusion.

I put my phone into flight mode earlier and then tried to open a pdf attachment which was previously unopened. Surprise surprise, without an internet connection, it wouldn't open. That's using a pretty common email app/OS/device combination, nothing niche, no fiddling with email settings.

I personally think it's absurd that you would purchase something and not double check that a) you had purchased the correct thing, b) there was no problem with what you had purchased.

 

[Starmill]

I personally think it's absurd that you would purchase something and not double check that a) you had purchased the correct thing, b) there was no problem with what you had purchased.

Sounds to me like you're just very jaded from being asked to provide good customer service to people who annoy you. Your posts in this thread are disproportionately hostile about an everyday experience shared by nearly all public-facing customer service workers in every sector in the country. A large proportion of the general public are slow (of moving / doing) and ignorant of a lot of what's going on around them. Nobody can change that realistically.

 

[AdamWW]

I personally think it's absurd that you would purchase something and not double check that a) you had purchased the correct thing, b) there was no problem with what you had purchased.

Some people will take the time to rigourously check everything they do.

Others save time by taking short cuts like assuming that if they're doing something they've done several times before then it will still work the same way.

These days we're bombarded with information and I personally wouldn't criticise someone for not reading all the text that appears when booking a ticket just in case something has changed from last timel.

 

[Starmill]

Some people will take the time to rigourously check everything they do.

Others save time by taking short cuts like assuming that if they're doing something they've done several times before then it will still work the same way.

These days we're bombarded with information and I personally wouldn't criticise someone for not reading all the text that appears when booking a ticket just in case something has changed from last timel.

I bet the people preaching here don't take the time to check if Terms & Conditions have changed every time they check something out online either. I know I don't. Who would have the time? Nobody would ever do anything other than sit reading the terms and conditions for hours a day. I rely on companies I don't actually trust at all, say Asda delivery, to not change their conditions in a way that treats me unfairly by a) the defence of their reputation and b) my statutory rights. Sadly with the railway industry the regulars here know to avoid that sort of thinking, and instead to be properly clued up on the terms and conditions, aware of the latest developments and everything else.

 

[Hadders]

Spot the difference. I recently made two journeys:

1. Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross fulfilled by e-ticket
2. Stevenage to Kings Cross fulfilled by ToD

Attached are anonymised versions of the confirmation emails. Both tickets were purchased from LNER.

The WGC to KGX email confirmation has a pdf attached to it which is the ticket. On my mobile phone this is simply displayed at the bottom of the email, you do not have to physically click on it to open it.

Now, going back to my Mr X scenario. Mr X gets sees the confirmation email drop into his inbox, job done. He simply opens it when he needs to and the e-ticket it there.
Then, one day the train company decides to withdraw e-tickets from his route and so he gets the ToD version of the email. When you're used to the e-ticket being 'there' you can hardly blame Mr X when he sees the email drop into his inbox as normal only to find the ticket isn't attached.

Of course, 'us' on here know about this sort of thing but you can hardly blame a genuine passenger in this situation.