TOCs requesting fulfilment method changes from Trainline

[Hadders]

For one thing, when you've just made the change the person will have been used to getting an e-Ticket and will turn up at the exit barriers before realising that they've got a ToD code.

What happens to a genuine passenger who makes these short distance journeys (I'm sure there will be some). They get used to purchasing an eticket on their phone as they approach the station then sudenly without warning, it needs to be collected using a bank card they might not even be carrying. That's assuming they notice the sudden change to ToD.

How will these passengers be dealt with. I know they will be a small minority of these ticket purchases but I'd say this behaviour is tantamount to entrapment.

The railway needs to be very careful how it proceeds with this sort of thing. For the avoidance of doubt I want fare evaders to be caught and dealt with but the railway industry has an appalling record of wrongful and illegal behaviour in this area and it needs to be extremely careful how it proceeds with things like this.

 

[Harpo]

There are strong parallels here with the ticketting issues underlying the ORR prosecutions investigation. A complex and unwieldy system is already ensnaring people and here, another layer of ifs, buts and maybes is added for the convenience of the system operator and to the detriment of its customer.

 

[WelshBluebird]

(and let's face it, who would do Queen Street to Central as an isolated journey rather than walk?)

As an isolated journey - not many but plenty of possible use cases, especially for those who are less mobile.

when you've just made the change the person will have been used to getting an e-Ticket and will turn up at the exit barriers before realising that they've got a ToD code. At this point the RPI can pounce: "Now Sir, can you tell me why you've arrived at Cardiff Central with an uncollected ticket from Cardiff Queen Street, despite Queen Street having barriers?" Anyone who has genuinely come from Queen Street will have printed their ticket before entering that station

Of course you have the fact someone could be doing it as part of a longer journey on a split ticket for some reason. As a similar example when travelling from Bristol to Cardiff city games I usually use the train to Cardiff Central then walk, but if the weather is bad I may decide to use the train from Cardiff Central to ninian park instead, but as i generally won't decide that until the last minute ill still buy a normal bristol to Cardiff return and then if I do want to get the train to ninian park I'll buy a CDF to NNP eticket whilst I'm at Cardiff Central.

 

[Cuthbert]

Apologies I have only just realised this post has it's own thread now.

I should have made the post with more information.
The ticket collection is only for those purchased between that station and the main station which is rife with short fare.
Legitimate passengers travelling from that station (collect only) would not travel to the main station as it is within walking distance and takes minutes. In some cases it is quicker to walk than wait for a train.
It does not delay the travelling passengers at all.
We also have multiple Revenue personal at the main station scanning every E-Ticket before the barriers.
That is when we catch them and ask why they did not collect the ticket. And as it has a barrier how they got through.

Regarding split tickets that also does not exist from this station as the price is the same if you bought from long distance to the station or to the main station.

Again apologies for the lack of information I posted. And also for the delay in replying I did not notice my post was moved.

 

[Jim the Jim]

I'm not an eticket user, but surely _the_ major advantage of an eticket is the time and hassle saving of not having to collect it at the station, so I can imagine people would be pretty annoyed at not being able to get etickets from their local station.

 

[Cuthbert]

I'm not an eticket user, but surely _the_ major advantage of an eticket is the time and hassle saving of not having to collect it at the station, so I can imagine people would be pretty annoyed at not being able to get etickets from their local station.

Again the Collect at station is only between two stations. Of which barely any legit person would buy.
This is the only station we have asked for this to be done as all our other stations would be a nightmare for passengers.
We catch a huge amount of passengers claiming to have started from the starting station when we know they have not.

 

[Krokodil]

What happens to a genuine passenger who makes these short distance journeys (I'm sure there will be some). They get used to purchasing an eticket on their phone as they approach the station then sudenly without warning, it needs to be collected using a bank card they might not even be carrying. That's assuming they notice the sudden change to ToD.

Given that both Queen Street and Central are barriered, they would have to print their ticket off before entering the station. Minor inconvenience, they may miss a train as a result but there will be another one in five minutes so never mind.

Wouldn't most genuine passengers use contactless PAYG for such a journey? A bit like how Chiltern catch people who claim to have come from Wembley Stadium.

Of course you have the fact someone could be doing it as part of a longer journey on a split ticket for some reason.

I challenge you to find a split that includes Cardiff Central to Cardiff Queen Street as one of the portions.

 

[Adam Williams]

I challenge you to find a split that includes Cardiff Central to Cardiff Queen Street as one of the portions.

They do get sold.



This one from a few years ago (first result I got to starting from the first row in the table); I don't have the full search details given how old the booking is, but it has been sold in the past.

 

[The exile]

They do get sold.

View attachment 169202

This one from a few years ago (first result I got to starting from the first row in the table); I don't have the full search details given how old the booking is, but it has been sold in the past.

Surely a single from Cardiff Central - Queen Street has never been £9.60!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Given that both Queen Street and Central are barriered, they would have to print their ticket off before entering the station. Minor inconvenience, they may miss a train as a result but there will be another one in five minutes so never mind.

I am coming from the position of someone is already on the station due to already being on their journey so having to exist the station to print out a ticket is more than just a minor inconvenicne - its a pain in the backside when that is only needed because of a ToC being silly.

Wouldn't most genuine passengers use contactless PAYG for such a journey? A bit like how Chiltern catch people who claim to have come from Wembley Stadium.

You mean the contactless PAYG that isn't yet available between Cardiff Central and Cardiff Queen Street (as far as I am aware - last I saw it was enabled between Pontypridd and Cardiff Bay, not not into Central)? And still, as with above, that requires someone to exist the station to allow them to tap back in if they are already part way through a journey.

I challenge you to find a split that includes Cardiff Central to Cardiff Queen Street as one of the portions.

I wasn't necessarily thinking of split ticketing in the regular sense to save money, more as I said in another post because plans can change. Or even things like Queen Street station can close due to events or someone may want to avoid Central because of it being busy.

 

[Adam Williams]

Surely a single from Cardiff Central - Queen Street has never been £9.60!

For 4 adults, 2 children it has

 

[Hadders]

Given that both Queen Street and Central are barriered, they would have to print their ticket off before entering the station. Minor inconvenience, they may miss a train as a result but there will be another one in five minutes so never mind.

You’re missing the point. Calving Cardiff stations are gates but I’m sure there’ll be others where this action is taken that don’t have gates. What happens then?

 

[Haywain]

You mean the contactless PAYG that isn't yet available between Cardiff Central and Cardiff Queen Street (as far as I am aware - last I saw it was enabled between Pontypridd and Cardiff Bay, not not into Central)?

It is enabled between Pontypridd and Cardiff Central as well.

 

[Starmill]

It is enabled between Pontypridd and Cardiff Central as well.

I'm not too surprised that @WelshBluebird didn't know that though, given the lack of publicity locally and the very cautious roll-out with so many different dates when stations are being added. Even the website does not immediately make it clear because the full implementation map has been published for a while now.

 

[Lewisham2221]

You’re missing the point. Calving Cardiff stations are gates but I’m sure there’ll be others where this action is taken that don’t have gates. What happens then?

Anybody purchasing an e-ticket and waiting until they are onboard the relevant train before even attempting to download their ticket, is part of the problem.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It is enabled between Pontypridd and Cardiff Central as well.

I'm not too surprised that @WelshBluebird didn't know that though, given the lack of publicity locally and the very cautious roll-out with so many different dates when stations are being added. Even the website does not immediately make it clear because the full implementation map has been published for a while now.

In which case apologies!

TfW certainly tried their hardest to be confusing though as their press release was titled "‘Pay As You Go’ now available between Pontypridd and Cardiff Bay".

Anyway there's another topic for that!

 

[Hadders]

Anybody purchasing an e-ticket and waiting until they are onboard the relevant train before even attempting to download their ticket, is part of the problem.

You don’t have to download an e-ticket. It’s a pdf attachment to every e-ticket I’ve ever purchased.

The email confirmation comes through, the e-ticket’s always attached to it, except one day the train company decides to change the rules without telling anyone and instead I have to collect it. I board the train as usual….

Can you see where this is going…..

 

[Lewisham2221]

You don’t have to download an e-ticket. It’s a pdf attachment to every e-ticket I’ve ever purchased.

The email confirmation comes through, the e-ticket’s always attached to it, except one day the train company decides to change the rules without telling anyone and instead I have to collect it. I board the train as usual….

Can you see where this is going…..

On what planet does the pdf attachment not need downloading? I must just be imagining all the times I stand waiting an absolute age for someone's e-ticket to load because the WiFi/4G/5G connection is poor. If you don't open the email and download/open the pdf before you board the train, you only have yourself to blame IMO.

 

[Krokodil]

They do get sold.

View attachment 169202

This one from a few years ago (first result I got to starting from the first row in the table); I don't have the full search details given how old the booking is, but it has been sold in the past.

Weird that most of the other portions are ToD-only.

Ultimately it's a minor inconvenience for that passenger, and TfW conductors can print off ToDs for them (except cross-London and SailRails). The odds of not encountering a Conductor on one of the three trains before Central are fairly remote and if the first time that they are challenged is when trying to exit at Queen Street and discover only then that it has fulfilled to ToD, at least they can demonstrate that they had paid for their full journey so there was no intent to defraud the railway, even if there was a bylaw offence committed by not printing it off.

Now someone who turns up at Queen Street with a ToD from Central, with no evidence of how they got inside the barriers there is going to be asked a few questions. When it turns out that their purchase history included a Rhyl to Prestatyn ticket dated today and they can't account for the bit in the middle then TfW have a slam dunk under the RoRA or even the Fraud Act.

 

[Hadders]

On what planet does the pdf attachment not need downloading? I must just be imagining all the times I stand waiting an absolute age for someone's e-ticket to load because the WiFi/4G/5G connection is poor. If you don't open the email and download/open the pdf before you board the train, you only have yourself to blame IMO.

You don’t download pdfs. They’re simply attached to the confirmation email, or not when a TOC unilateral decides to disable e-tickets.

Again, for the avoidance of doubt I do not condone fare evasion but this tactic is dubious, and could be seen as entrapment.

The rail industry is in enough trouble already for failing to follow the law when it comes to prosecutions so it should tread very carefully on something like this.

 

[Haywain]

You don’t download pdfs.

Why do I find them in the downloads folder on my phone once they've been opened then?

 

[island]

You don’t download pdfs. They’re simply attached to the confirmation email, or not when a TOC unilateral decides to disable e-tickets.

Whilst yours might, many mobile phones do not receive email attachments automatically, either generally or when set to "power saving" or "low data" modes.

 

[Ghostbus]

This is daft.

It is not for a passenger to prove they passed a gateline, lawfully or otherwise, it is for the TOC to prove they didn't. Can they do that? I don't think they can. Not without huge expense, and not any and every time you might need to do it.

You would think people would have learned the lessons of Horizon too. Technology is not infallible, and I very much doubt the railway has tested it fully, let alone makes sure it is always working properly. If you start prosecuting people on the strength of computer logs only, you're asking for trouble.

They might get away with this for a while, might even catch a few evaders, but as soon as an innocent person is put in station jail and subjected to interrogation, and they go to Which!, then some keen eyed lawyer will realise there's a class action lawsuit here.

 

[Lewisham2221]

You don’t download pdfs

Yes you do. The pdf is not generated by your device, it requires an internet connection to get there. The time guards spend waiting for (multiple) people to download their e-tickets is just one of the many things which all of the "just check everyone's ticket onboard" arguments fail to take into account.

 

[Hadders]

Yes you do. The pdf is not generated by your device, it requires an internet connection to get there. The time guards spend waiting for (multiple) people to download their e-tickets is just one of the many things which all of the "just check everyone's ticket onboard" arguments fail to take into account.

Let's imagine this situation.

Mr X recently moved to Cardiff where he rents a flat near Ninian Park station. Mr X has a job in the city centre and usually walks to work to save money but when it's raining he gets the train. Mr X always buys his train ticket on his phone as he approaches the station. He gets an immediate confirmation email which has a pdf attachment containing the actual ticket. There are no ticket barriers at Ninian Park so there is no need for Mr X to open the email before he boards the train. There's not normally a ticket check on board as the journey only takes a couple of minutes.

Upon arrival at Cardiff Central Mr X opens the pdf attachment that contains a barcode which he uses to open the ticket barriers to exit Cardiff Central. Mr X has done this for years. One day upon arrival at Cardiff Central Mr X opened the email but found no attachment. Instead the email said he had to collect the ticket from a ticket machine before departure. Mr X approached a member of staff at the ticket barrier and explained the situation. The member of staff took Mr X's details and said he would be contacted by Transport for Wales in due course.

We all know how the rest of the story goes....

 

[Lewisham2221]

Let's imagine this situation.

Mr X recently moved to Cardiff where he rents a flat near Ninian Park station. Mr X has a job in the city centre and usually walks to work to save money but when it's raining he gets the train. Mr X always buys his train ticket on his phone as he approaches the station. He gets an immediate confirmation email which has a pdf attachment containing the actual ticket. There are no ticket barriers at Ninian Park so there is no need for Mr X to open the email before he boards the train. There's not normally a ticket check on board as the journey only takes a couple of minutes.

Upon arrival at Cardiff Central Mr X opens the pdf attachment that contains a barcode which he uses to open the ticket barriers to exit Cardiff Central. Mr X has done this for years. One day upon arrival at Cardiff Central Mr X opened the email but found no attachment. Instead the email said he had to collect the ticket from a ticket machine before departure. Mr X approached a member of staff at the ticket barrier and explained the situation. The member of staff took Mr X's details and said he would be contacted by Transport for Wales in due course.

We all know how the rest of the story goes....

Ignoring the obvious contradiction that Mr X has only recently moved to Cardiff, but has only been opening his e-ticket at the last moment to exit the barriers at Cardiff Central for years....

If Mr X doesn't check that he has actually received what he's paid for, that's is a Mr X problem rather than an anybody else problem.

 

[robbeech]

If Mr X doesn't check that he has actually received what he's paid for, that's is a Mr X problem rather than an anybody else problem.

THIS is The Railway in 2024.

 

[Adam Williams]

Ignoring the obvious contradiction that Mr X has only recently moved to Cardiff, but has only been opening his e-ticket at the last moment to exit the barriers at Cardiff Central for years....

Before he moved to Cardiff, Mr X was commuting from further afield, but still arriving at Cardiff Central.

 

[Starmill]

Whilst yours might, many mobile phones do not receive email attachments automatically, either generally or when set to "power saving" or "low data" modes.

Surely this is moot though, because the customer's app will always download the ticket for them automatically when they check it out? I only know of one app that doesn't do so and trainline, the current subject, most certainly does.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2024 ==

On what planet does the pdf attachment not need downloading? I must just be imagining all the times I stand waiting an absolute age for someone's e-ticket to load because the WiFi/4G/5G connection is poor.

Sounds like the people in question don't know how to use a smartphone to me. I've never waited. Nor have I ever clicked the download button on my email app to access a PDF. The ticket is automatically visible in the LNER, Northern or Trainline app as soon as it's checked out...

I have clicked on the Load to Google Wallet button of course and that's another option to get rid of any hypothetical waiting.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Surely this is moot though, because the customer's app will always download the ticket for them automatically when they check it out? I only know of one app that doesn't do so and trainline, the current subject, most certainly does.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2024 ==


Sounds like the people in question don't know how to use a smartphone to me. I've never waited. Nor have I ever clicked on it the download button on my email app to access a PDF. The ticket is automatically visible in the LNER, Northern or Trainline app as soon as it's checked out...

That's funny, because I regularly see a button on the Trainline app marked as "download ticket" which people press and after a moment (or more if the data signal is poor), once the ticket has downloaded, changes to "view ticket".