TOC's operating out of London terminals

[Harlesden]

(Sorry I couldn't come up with a better thread title).
Hypothetically, if the DfT made a ruling in respect of rail franchises requiring TOC's operating out of London terminals to adopt the Paddington pattern whereby local and long distance services out of said terminal are operated by the same TOC, which TOC would be most likely to operate the combined franchise for services out of King's Cross (or Euston).

 

[ainsworth74]

An expanded InterCity East Coast franchise (a new name would be required) would probably be responsible for the Great Northen elements of FCC, if you're going down that route it would probably also be sensible to incorporate the Moorgate services into the new expanded franchise also. I imagine the Open Access Operators would remain independent as they are not subject to DfT franchising and are, effectively, under the ORR.

Similarly an expanded InterCity West Coast franchise would be responsible in Euston I'd have thought. Though in this case I suspect you'd leave the existing London Overground services alone as they are a bit different to the present VT and LM services and it's logical to leave them as a standalone operation.

 

[bicbasher]

Charing Cross has only had Southeastern serving the station since December 2009 after Southern lost their 2tph slots due to the start of HS1.

Victoria would require the merging of the Integrated Kent and Southern franchises, similar to how Connex branded the two franchises.

Cannon Street has always been Southeastern.

London Bridge to bring the TOC's from three to one would require Southeastern to become part of the Thameslink franchise, however it will become two when Southern merges with Thameslink.

Waterloo is just SWT I think? Fenchurch Street C2C and Liverpool Street Greater Anglia, although that will soon become Crossrail for Shenfield services and the metro services to a new TfL concessionaire.

 

[gordonthemoron]

but surely Crossrail is really a separate station at Paddington/Liverpool Street?

 

[Eagle]

but surely Crossrail is really a separate station at Paddington/Liverpool Street?

Normally, but they may be diverted to the main station during disruption (like FCC are at St Pancras).

 

[tractakid]

Well, being nitpicky, Paddington has two TOCs for local services, with the daily Chiltern :P Similar can be said for Liverpool Street with c2c. So lets merge those franchises too!

It would be fantastic to travel with just Virgin all the way from Edinburgh to Walthamstow Queens Road once Euston becomes single-operator.

To be honest, this thread is simply highlighting just how different each London Terminal is.

 

[Eagle]

It would be fantastic to travel with just Virgin all the way from Edinburgh to Walthamstow Queens Road once Euston becomes single-operator.

Actually you'd travel from Inverness, because the sleepers would also be Virgin if that happened :P

 

[DeeGee]

Wasn't the point origially supposed to be that there would be different operators between stations depending on whether you wanted to travel cheaply or quickly, viz Euston to Birmingham via LM or VWC?

Thus enabling some kind of competition to happen.

Or would that be a totally unrealistic expectation?

 

[bicbasher]

Normally, but they may be diverted to the main station during disruption (like FCC are at St Pancras).

6tph will serve the NR station during the peaks. Also Crossrail replace GA in 2015 on those services.

 

[tsr]

Obviously this cannot account for unusual diversions such as FCC to London Victoria.

 

[Eagle]

That won't be so weird once the franchises are merged, though.

 

[bicbasher]

That won't be so weird once the franchises are merged, though.

It will be if a TSGN service terminates on the Southeastern platforms.

 

[tractakid]

Actually you'd travel from Inverness, because the sleepers would also be Virgin if that happened :P

Why would I travel from Inverness? That's not where my best mate's uncle's ex girlfriend's older brother lives.

But yes, Virgin from Inverness. And Fort William.

Would be interesting merging Southeastern and EMT.

 

[TrainBoy98]

Would be interesting merging Southeastern and EMT.

Why would that need to happen?

 

[Eagle]

Would be interesting merging Southeastern and EMT.

You'd also have to merge Southern into that, because of Victoria.

 

[Mojo]

Why would that need to happen?

In the context of the discussion in this thread; because Southeastern and EMT services both terminate at St Pancras.

 

[tractakid]

Basically, One TOC for Euston, one for Marylebone/Paddington, One for Liverpool Street/Fenchurch Street, one for St Pancras/Kings Cross/Moorgate/Charing Cross/London Bridge/Cannon Street/Victoria/Blackfriars and we can leave Waterloo alone.

 

[bnm]

Paddington doesn't have one operator though.

There's Heathrow Connect operated by Heathrow Airport Holdings Ltd/First Group.
And Heathrow Express operated by Heathrow Airport Holdings,

 

[TrainBoy98]

In the context of the discussion in this thread; because Southeastern and EMT services both terminate at St Pancras.

Ah right, but surely then they would both need to be merged into Eurostar?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Basically, One TOC for Euston, one for Marylebone/Paddington, One for Liverpool Street/Fenchurch Street, one for St Pancras/Kings Cross/Moorgate/Charing Cross/London Bridge/Cannon Street/Victoria/Blackfriars and we can leave Waterloo alone.

Leave Marylebone alone too, its only got Chiltern. And Cannon and Charing have only SouthEastern, Moorgate is only FCC.

 

[Manchester77]

One for Liverpool Street

Again?!

On a more serious note its an interesting question though, could create some mega franchises

 

[Eagle]

You can't leave Marylebone alone because you have to merge Chiltern with FGW and HX (as all three serve Paddington). Same goes for the Southeastern stations.


(What the hell are we even discussing, I don't know any more.)

 

[DBE]

Here's a thought: Merge everything, and give it a name to cover every operation, something like 'British Rail' maybe?

 

[tractakid]

Has anyone done the maths about London Terminals? Who operates most services to/from London Terminals? Scotrail the fewest, i'll give you that much.

 

[Pumbaa]

It's South West, Southeastern or Greater Anglia.

A very brief interrogation suggests SWT pips GA, but a more thorough interrogation reveals its SE.

 

[Bald Rick]

Has anyone done the maths about London Terminals? Who operates most services to/from London Terminals? Scotrail the fewest, i'll give you that much.

Southeastern run more trains than SWT (and GA), with relatively few non-London services.

 

[Pumbaa]

Southeastern run more trains than SWT (and GA), with relatively few non-London services.

Filtered the wrong bloody field didn't I Yes they do.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Has anyone done the maths about London Terminals? Who operates most services to/from London Terminals? Scotrail the fewest, i'll give you that much.

Wrong. Scotrail operate the sleeper

Northern, First Transpennine Express, Arriva Trains Wales, Merseyrail and XC are the only ones i can think of that run none.

 

[Clip]

Wrong. Scotrail operate the sleeper

Northern, First Transpennine Express, Arriva Trains Wales, Merseyrail and XC are the only ones i can think of that run none.

No, he was right. He asked which ran the fewest to/from London terminals

And that would be Scotrail.

 

[tractakid]

Anyone fancy putting them all in order?

Approximate groups/order

Few:

Scotrail, Grand Central, Hull Trains, London Overground, East Coast, East Midlands Trains, London Midland, c2c

Average

Virgin, Chiltern, First Capital Connect, First Great Western

A lot

Greater Anglia, Southern, Southeastern, South West Trains

 

[34D]

Wrong. Scotrail operate the sleeper

Northern, First Transpennine Express, Arriva Trains Wales, Merseyrail and XC are the only ones i can think of that run none.

But let us not forget that (the predecessors of) Northern, Arriva Trains Wales and XC have run to London in the past (Euston, waterloo and paddington/kenny o respectively I think).