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TOCs being anti bike?
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brompton rail
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True, but only after they had closed the space for 4 bikes in Coach F between driver's cab and passenger doors. This is now used for refreshment trolley storage etc. the replacement bike storage spaces - 3 only with 2 bookable and 1 not- are more difficult to access because they involve a sharp turn next to the door with the cyclist having to upend his/her bike in the doorway and block others joining.
Virgin retain the "as built" bike storage for 4 bikes. These too need upending but this is carried out away from passengers using the doors.
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XC made a big deal when the luggage space was moved from the DMSL to coach D saying it'd been increased whilst the shop was removed for it, however the same space could have been made by just putting a shelf in the previous space.
Beveridges
Established Member
Because cycling long-distance is slow, very hard work (especially on a mountain bike), the route is often not fun to ride just traffic fested, and if I did cycle to the start of where I want to ride from my doorstep, I'd be too knackered to even start the ride! Or too knackered to even get there in most cases.
Cycling is a good alternative to walking, but that's it. It can not replace the car or train for anything but the shortest distance journeys.
Virgin Pendos/Voyagers are a terrible design for carrying cycles and the cycle spaces are in a parcels area behind the Driver requiring a Train Manager or Platform Staff to walk to the front to unlock the parcels area, or the Driver to come out of his cab. Horrendously poor design. As mentioned in a previous post.
VT Train Managers, Station Staff & Drivers seemed to treat me like I'm a pain in the ar$e, hence I stopped using them.
You have to book cycle spaces from the booking office but more often than not the Booking Office say "all bike spaces are taken on the first two trains" and you have to stand there like a dick head for over an hour waiting for a train that is not booked up. The parcels area on the Voyagers and Pendos has far more room than the 4 bikes maximum allowed. They just like to be pedantic about it.
One time Virgin Booking Office staff refused me a bike space I just walked off & onto the platforms and didn't buy a ticket (even though I'm Northern Staff & showed them my ATOC) - Virgin booking office treated me like a criminal! She got on the radio shouting "make sure he does not get on any train", when the security idiot tried to remove me I said there's nothing you can do to stop me getting on a Northern train. A lot of arguing still followed with the said jobsworths.
Northern and ATW are better: never had any trouble as yet.
Never used XC yet but it appears they have the right idea by removing the shop and putting cycle space in it's place.
Also note that cycling is green. Anti-bike TOC's like Virgin are doing nothing to help this country ever get green.
For a lot of people (including myself), the stations at either end require lengthy walks to get to where I'm going. if I don't bring a bike then in most cases travelling by train is just not viable compared to using the car. This is despite myself getting free travel on Northern and 75% ATOC discount with other TOCs.
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This is the most pertinent post in this entire thread, and squarely hits the nail on the head.
I don't get why some cyclists (actually, a lot of cyclists) get like this. Are they not just content to get fit and be green, without going on some moral crusade?
And when they have a go at pedestrians, it's even more bizarre. Sure, some feel that cars are polluting and cycling is better for the environment - but people who opt to walk are greener still, given there would have been a fair degree of CO2 emissions from the construction of their bike!
Where I live, there are a number of cycling groups and on a weekend you'll see lots of them around the country roads using them for their racing. They've got every right to do that of course, but I still find it selfish when they'll often ride two or three abreast and go slow (perhaps resting, chatting) as if to deliberately antagonise motorists because on these country roads there's no way you'll safely overtake in most cases and must just crawl along at 15-20mph on what is a 60mph road.
Sadly, the actions of these people is what ultimately means a lot of people see a cyclist and automatically think the worst.
And when they have a go at pedestrians, it's even more bizarre. Sure, some feel that cars are polluting and cycling is better for the environment - but people who opt to walk are greener still, given there would have been a fair degree of CO2 emissions from the construction of their bike!
Where I live, there are a number of cycling groups and on a weekend you'll see lots of them around the country roads using them for their racing. They've got every right to do that of course, but I still find it selfish when they'll often ride two or three abreast and go slow (perhaps resting, chatting) as if to deliberately antagonise motorists because on these country roads there's no way you'll safely overtake in most cases and must just crawl along at 15-20mph on what is a 60mph road.
Sadly, the actions of these people is what ultimately means a lot of people see a cyclist and automatically think the worst.
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I agree.
XC never seamed to be a problem when I used them a few years back, as I never had a problem getting a cycle space although it did mean that there was no seat!!!
It should also be noted that some of the SE routes which have cycle bans on them serve stations with with poor or no bus connections, but with large villages within an easy cycle distance. Which makes it difficult if you are travelling between them or even to/from them and a fairly spread out town where the buses don't go everywhere. With the lack of cycle spaces at stations it then means that it isn't possible to have a bike at each end (which is often cheaper than buying a folding bike).
One good thing about the IEP's is that the draft layouts and some of the rendered photos seam to imply 4 or 8 cycle spaces per train (5 car or 9 car sets respectively), which should mean that there should be a reasonable level of space for cycles. The draft layouts also show that they are all located in the same location, so no long hike if the spot you look at first has no space (unless its a paired up 5 car train).
YorkshireBear
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A lot of cyclists think of themselves as superior because they have made the morale environmentally friendly decision to cycle. This is a bit stereotypical but this is 90% of the cyclists I meet.
Personally i think the best way to integrate cycling into railways is to have it where you cycle with your own bike to local station and store it at a company thing (all major stations have them plus many suburban ones). This same company at stations has storage space and bikes to rent, which for a fee, Daily, Weekly, Monthly, Yearly you can store your own bike at departure station and then rent one at destination for the day. They probably all do maintenance etc too.
Not sure how workable people think it is, or whether similar things are used in European countries but that my pennies worth.
Personally i think the best way to integrate cycling into railways is to have it where you cycle with your own bike to local station and store it at a company thing (all major stations have them plus many suburban ones). This same company at stations has storage space and bikes to rent, which for a fee, Daily, Weekly, Monthly, Yearly you can store your own bike at departure station and then rent one at destination for the day. They probably all do maintenance etc too.
Not sure how workable people think it is, or whether similar things are used in European countries but that my pennies worth.
I also agree with this statement.
I think it depends on how the cyclist has come to cycling as to how they react.
If it is their main mode of travel from a young age then they tend to be a little softer (it has always been thus, but I would like to see some changes for the better).
However the more fanatical cyclists tend to be those that have come to it later and feel that they should be able to convert everyone else just like they were.
I defiantly think that some cyclists don't do themselves any favours in the way that they behave, but then they probably also feel that everyone is against them (which it can feel like when you've nearly been knocked off your bike three times already by other road users not seeing you or giving you enough space and you've only gone a mile).
Hatfield station is being rebuilt soon and will have a huge bike parking area (two levels I believe) and given you have the Boris bikes in London, it does mean people could realistically avoid taking a bike on the train at all - yet have another bike at the other end (if going to London).
That would also mean you could then buy a 'proper' bike as against a folder, but you'd need to be fairly confident your bike would be safe and secure at the station - and that's something that probably puts a lot of people off right now.
That would also mean you could then buy a 'proper' bike as against a folder, but you'd need to be fairly confident your bike would be safe and secure at the station - and that's something that probably puts a lot of people off right now.
The problem with the model that you have suggested is that it requires staffing (which comes at a cost, although could work if it also sold rail tickets at a station which would otherwise not have a manned ticket office).
A model which could reduce the number of staff required would be along the lines of the Borris Bikes in London, although you still may require a shop to carry out maintenance, move bikes around and the like, but it wouldn't be required at every station which the scheme covered.
gordonthemoron
Established Member
and ofcourse Borisbikes cost a fortune to provide
Book in advance! Is that really so hard? Presumably it's what all the other people with bikes do, hence them getting the space and not you.
It works in London, like a lot of things can because of the sheer numbers of people (and a desire by some to avoid overcrowded tubes and buses).
I agree that such bike schemes are far less likely to work elsewhere.
I'm a cyclist who used to own a car but doesn't any more.
I only take my bicycle on off-peak trains. There are some journeys where I deem it too much hassle to gamble as to whether there will be space for my bicycle. In those cases I usually do not make the journey at all by train. I'll just stay at home, or cycle the whole way, or hire a car
The solutions proposed above are not enough to satisfy me I'm afraid. I bought a Brompton folding bicycle to take on the train but found it very heavy to lug around and it felt like driving a tank when riding it. The small wheels and heavy frames to give them stuctural sturdiness make them very heavy and cumbersome. They're just not nice to cycle on, and mine had all sorts of mechanical failures. I'm now doing it up to sell it as I got so fed up with it.
Even Boris bikes are a problem - they are horrid to ride, and 3 out of the 5 times I've tried to get one, there has been a failure in the docking station (crunching noise, computer system down etc) which has meant it hasn't been able to dispense me one. I now don't bother trying, because I just can't rely on them.
Cycle parking in stations is a good idea, and I use this at more rural stations, but I would never use cycle parking in a suburban or inner-city station. You need to carry heavy locks, and your bicycle (or accessories, lights, wheels etc if not removed) can and do go "missing". Even if nothing can be stolen, I've seen bicycles get damaged, frames bent etc. There's also not many cycle spaces in a lot of stations, evne though they seem to have plenty of space for motor vehicles.
The railways are nowhere near being a turn-up and go service for cyclists. Even when there is cycle space, its impossible to know where abouts on the platform you need to stand, and which door to use, when you're at a new station, given all the various differing rolling stock we have. The bicycle logos on train doors are too small to see. If only they were marked clearly like in the attachment
I'm a big fan of fold-up longitudinal seats that some of the suburban stock has, which can be used for commuters at peak time, and for cycles/buggies/wheelchairs etc off-peak. For intercity trains that is less practical, and it is a real shame to see the loss of guard's vans in modern stock.
I'd be willing to pay extra to have a guaranteed cycle space, in the carriage or in the guard's van, but few TOCs offer it. This could pay for the guard's van surely? Of course I'd only be in favour if buggies and oversized luggage attracts the same charge.
I only take my bicycle on off-peak trains. There are some journeys where I deem it too much hassle to gamble as to whether there will be space for my bicycle. In those cases I usually do not make the journey at all by train. I'll just stay at home, or cycle the whole way, or hire a car
The solutions proposed above are not enough to satisfy me I'm afraid. I bought a Brompton folding bicycle to take on the train but found it very heavy to lug around and it felt like driving a tank when riding it. The small wheels and heavy frames to give them stuctural sturdiness make them very heavy and cumbersome. They're just not nice to cycle on, and mine had all sorts of mechanical failures. I'm now doing it up to sell it as I got so fed up with it.
Even Boris bikes are a problem - they are horrid to ride, and 3 out of the 5 times I've tried to get one, there has been a failure in the docking station (crunching noise, computer system down etc) which has meant it hasn't been able to dispense me one. I now don't bother trying, because I just can't rely on them.
Cycle parking in stations is a good idea, and I use this at more rural stations, but I would never use cycle parking in a suburban or inner-city station. You need to carry heavy locks, and your bicycle (or accessories, lights, wheels etc if not removed) can and do go "missing". Even if nothing can be stolen, I've seen bicycles get damaged, frames bent etc. There's also not many cycle spaces in a lot of stations, evne though they seem to have plenty of space for motor vehicles.
The railways are nowhere near being a turn-up and go service for cyclists. Even when there is cycle space, its impossible to know where abouts on the platform you need to stand, and which door to use, when you're at a new station, given all the various differing rolling stock we have. The bicycle logos on train doors are too small to see. If only they were marked clearly like in the attachment
I'm a big fan of fold-up longitudinal seats that some of the suburban stock has, which can be used for commuters at peak time, and for cycles/buggies/wheelchairs etc off-peak. For intercity trains that is less practical, and it is a real shame to see the loss of guard's vans in modern stock.
I'd be willing to pay extra to have a guaranteed cycle space, in the carriage or in the guard's van, but few TOCs offer it. This could pay for the guard's van surely? Of course I'd only be in favour if buggies and oversized luggage attracts the same charge.
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The large bike symbol on the side of a train is certainly a good idea and one that could easily be implemented here, or at the very least a larger marking for wheelchairs/buggies (which would invariably be the same section).
For all of these people, you really need to be at the right part of the platform to board as you can't exactly go through inside - and when a train comes in, it's hard to see some of the symbols (just as it can be hard to see where first class is on some trains).
I know the exact places to stand at my home station for any given rolling stock and length, but wouldn't have a clue at many other stations - and I consider myself a pretty clued up traveller.
For all of these people, you really need to be at the right part of the platform to board as you can't exactly go through inside - and when a train comes in, it's hard to see some of the symbols (just as it can be hard to see where first class is on some trains).
I know the exact places to stand at my home station for any given rolling stock and length, but wouldn't have a clue at many other stations - and I consider myself a pretty clued up traveller.
DeeGee
Member
I have cycled since childhood. Have had many occasions even as an adult where cycling has been my main mode of transport.
I have fond memories of chucking my bike in the guard's van on the Medway Valley Line, or the Maidstone East Line, going off to the other side of Maidstone or to the Medway Towns, and spending a day exploring by bike.
Didn't need to pre-book. Just turned up and paid the guard for the ticket.
It gave me, as a young teenager, a mobility that I wouldn't have had otherwise, and going to the Grammar School in Maidstone my friends were scattered over a wide area. I didn't want my parents taking me and my bike everywhere, but a 20 mile round trip to get to my friends' house was impractical aged 11 or 12.
I still cycle now. I own a car, but it's more useful for my wife to have it while at home with our son than for me to leave it unused while I run a race the other end of the country. I'd take my bike if I could feel confident that it would be accepted, but it isn't. It's a shame, because that does restrict me to staying within walking/taxi distance of a station.
I wouldn't mind paying a couple of quid extra for a cycle ticket, if I could just turn up and go.
Yeah I often think that. I do wonder how quickly a 'couple of quid' would become a fiver or even a tenner though. Just look at station car parking charges.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I'm totally with you there. As long as it doesn't add more than 5-10% to the ticket price, I'd be happy to pay for the ability to turn up and go with my bike in the same way that I can without the bike.
I wonder how much business TOC's are losing at off-peak times when there are plenty of spare seats thanks to the difficulty of taking cycles. I would imagine on some lines it could be quite significant.
Case in point: I'll be travelling from London to Lancaster this month. It'll be off-peak and normally it'd be a complete no-brainer that I'd go by train. But I want my cycle with me, and the difficulty getting it on trains mean it's currently looking 50/50 whether I'll just drive instead. That'd be not only loss of revenue to Virgin but an awful lot of extra pollution, but I'm not sure I have the choice
This just buying a bike ticket doesn't solve the problem. A 156 will hold 4 bikes, 5 people buy a bike ticket. Now not only does the guard have to turn one person away but they are having to turn someone away who has paid extra to carry their bike.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Oh yes, I wasn't saying that should be done with current rolling stock. I meant that in principle if we could get back to a situation where trains typically have a large space similar to the old guards vans, then I'd quite happily pay extra for being able to put a bike in it.
I can't believe cyclists comparing buggies with their own mode of transport :roll:
Those trains with tip down seating are exactly what are needed and work very well on the GWML and have used them in Germany as well on a doulbe decker train. I appreciate this won't work for intercities and verticle storage is the solution.
At Hook Railway station on the GWML there are four rentable lockable metal containers with very substantial doors for leaving a bike in. These are the only places I would leave my bike (which is nothing special) at a unstaffed station.
As for the various comments about cyclists I will say that there are inconsiderate drivers and their are are inconsiderate cyclists. If you find your self always having problems with cyclists it's probably your driving that is the problem.
Most of my problems with cyclists are not when I'm driving, it's when I'm walking - and that can be simply walking on a pavement* or crossing a road.
I've had many near misses with cyclists, but probably only one or two incidents where a motorist has potentially caused me harm.
* I refer to pavements that aren't designated as shared use, but I've also had some cyclists going like crazy on shared paths - and having absolutely no ability to avoid a VERY nasty accident if anyone in front deviated from walking in a straight line for any reason. Cyclists do not have right of way over pedestrians, but you'd barely know it.
Anyway, back on topic, I'd hope new trains had larger areas for storage of bikes/buggies/wheelchairs and standing room at peak times (when not needed by any of the above). We could look abroad to see how it can be done, with large open space that might also accommodate a vending machine or two for refreshments.
I've had many near misses with cyclists, but probably only one or two incidents where a motorist has potentially caused me harm.
* I refer to pavements that aren't designated as shared use, but I've also had some cyclists going like crazy on shared paths - and having absolutely no ability to avoid a VERY nasty accident if anyone in front deviated from walking in a straight line for any reason. Cyclists do not have right of way over pedestrians, but you'd barely know it.
Anyway, back on topic, I'd hope new trains had larger areas for storage of bikes/buggies/wheelchairs and standing room at peak times (when not needed by any of the above). We could look abroad to see how it can be done, with large open space that might also accommodate a vending machine or two for refreshments.
I think the way it is typically done abroad is to provide an adequate number of vehicles on each service which can handle the traffic offering. There has not been the British approach where what was a three-car train a generation ago is now provided by a single car 153, stuffed full of seats, everyone packed in and standees down the aisle even off-peak - and then there are a couple of cyclists at the next station.
Meadowhall to Sheffield at 15.00 was a recent case in point.
Why not? Buggies used to be small, foldable and used only by infants. Nowadays, they are massive, don't fold up and are sometimes used by for children who are able to walk because of lazy parenting. They are also a method of transport and their occupants get half price tickets (or none at all for babies), despite often being the noisiest passengers and needing the most assistance with steps etc. Some parents even use them as trolleys for their shopping and make the child walk.
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Only 5-10%? Given the cheap prices on some Advances, such as £3.95 for London to Birmingham, I might sometimes even stretch to paying the same again to carry a bicycle. Can I buy 2 APs and park my cycle across 2 seats
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It annoys me too. Some people have no concept of the Highway Code, and it gives us all a bad name, sadly. I would guess that these are not the cyclists that want to take their cycles on intercity routes though.
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For me, turn up and go isn't as important as being able to reserve a space for an end-to-end journey in advance, on all legs including rattly 153s etc
.I don't want to get halfway through my journey to suddenly find I can't board the next train, so never take a train for a journey requiring a non-cycle-reservable train that isn't the first leg.
AnonymousUser1
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this is the solution to the seats vs space issue on Buses - with 3 or 4 tip up seats in the wheelchair space and sometimes a pair in a seperate 'buggy bay' and variable legal capacities based on wheelchair / use of the tip up seats / use as standign space ...
VauxhallandI
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