TOC to FOC?

[DaveCheeseman]

Seriously considering a move from passenger to freight. The main reason is relocation. Any one out there who's done just that? Or perhaps someone that has moved the other way from freight to passenger.

 

[OpsWeb]

Seriously considering a move from passenger to freight. The main reason is relocation. Any one out there who's done just that? Or perhaps someone that has moved the other way from freight to passenger.

I know people who have come from freight to passenger, and then after 3 or 4 years have now left to go back to freight. From speaking to one or two of them, i don't think they liked the perceived "pettiness" of the passenger side of the business. But that was entirely there opinion.


I suppose its down to personal preference, whether you like the "passenger" work style of station stops and door duties or whether you would prefer longer routes and slower speed but without passengers.

 

[A-driver]

Seriously considering a move from passenger to freight. The main reason is relocation. Any one out there who's done just that? Or perhaps someone that has moved the other way from freight to passenger.

I've a few mates who have gone from TOC to FOC and the general vibe is that they would never consider going back to passenger work. Seems those doing the container work are even happier than those on the ballast to.

 

[Pacerpilot]

I did 6 years with a TOC and I'm now in my fourth year with a FOC. I would Never ever consider going back. I'm paid better, left alone, treated like an adult and far happier. I prefer the variety of work and I have a much much larger route card now. I still sign DMUs for transit moves to and from works so this is absolutely perfect for me. I'd still be working here if I won the Euromillions.

 

[TDK]

Many of the drivers who go from TOC to FOC are enthusiasts and want to drive loco's, some are made redundant from their current TOC jobs and some just want a change, the many drivers who have gone from TOC to FOC wish they had stayed where they were due to the comforts, the stability and also the work loads.

 

[theironroad]

How many TOC drivers have been made redundant in recent history?

 

[Legzr1]

the many drivers who have gone from TOC to FOC wish they had stayed where they were due to the comforts, the stability and also the work loads.

Just goes to show that, even though we work in the same industry, our experiences can be poles apart!

The lads I know who've gone from TOC to FOC always mention the same thing - the refreshing lack of micro-management from middle managers with agendas, points to prove and an insatiable appetite to climb the corporate ladder on the backs of whoever gets in the way.

Naturally, some FOCs have these characters too but they're few and far between and are soon weeded out.

There are real pro's and cons to each but the truth lies between as always - some are suited to pass work where they know what they're doing in nine months time whereas others like the idea of actually having a little control

 

[TDK]

How many TOC drivers have been made redundant in recent history?

12 in WSMR me being one of them and also many in DBS a while back
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just goes to show that, even though we work in the same industry, our experiences can be poles apart!

The lads I know who've gone from TOC to FOC always mention the same thing - the refreshing lack of micro-management from middle managers with agendas, points to prove and an insatiable appetite to climb the corporate ladder on the backs of whoever gets in the way.

Naturally, some FOCs have these characters too but they're few and far between and are soon weeded out.

There are real pro's and cons to each but the truth lies between as always - some are suited to pass work where they know what they're doing in nine months time whereas others like the idea of actually having a little control

I can see your point however you will find the majority of drivers who either go for a FOC are old freight hands or have an interest in trains (however they may not admit it) DRS are almost run by enthusiasts. If it is a steady relatively easy comfortable and predictable job you are after and have no interest in trains or loco's then passenger work is by far the most accommodating. You know it's true

 

[whoosh]

How many TOC drivers have been made redundant in recent history?

Virgin Cross Country at Brighton a few years back,
Eurostar in about 2009/10 (voluntary redundancies),
Wrexham & Shropshire

That's all I can think of apart from voluntary redundancies by some InterCity operators just after privatisation when agreements were reached for trains above 110mph to be single-manned.
Also the infamous post-privatised South West Trains (I think that was voluntary as well), when afterwards they realised they hadn't taken into account traction and route knowledge when doing a 'back of the envelope' calculation of how many drivers they needed, prompting a special reduced timetable for many months.

TOCs are very safe in terms of job security. FOCs can lay off or reduce hours in downturns, but quite a few £'s can be made with overtime in good times.

 

[JAMBO]

Each to there own i suppose, both good and bad, but last few years I have mates who have left a FOC to jump to a TOC and not one of them has any regrets, in fact the last lad I spoke to said he wish he had done it earlier. On the other hand I have met pass men who have came to the freight and it's just been one hell of a culture shock and you can see them twisting on and climbing the walls to go back as its a different ball game! Lol

 

[theironroad]

12 in WSMR me being one of them and also many in DBS a while back

Sorry to hear that, I'm guessing youve been able to get a drivers job since.

 

[wensley]

Quite a few of the Drivers I know who have gone FOC to TOC wouldn't consider moving back, they seem to prefer the more sociable/family-friendly shifts offered at their TOC and like to be able to sit in the clean and dry most of the time!

 

[theironroad]

Virgin Cross Country at Brighton a few years back,
Eurostar in about 2009/10 (voluntary redundancies),
Wrexham & Shropshire

I was thinking the last 10 years and especially since the start of the recession and financial crisis. The SWT mess was obviously a bus operator thinking he could run a railway the same way and came back to bite him.

Vtxc, I believe was depot closure when they lost Guildford to Brighton as part of the truncating of the xc network a bit.

The Eurostar one surprised me a bit as recent.

Don't know a lot about the Wrexham episode, except that I think that vt werent be too fair on small operators.

My point is really that the number of redundancies from tocs has been pretty small in the last 10 years and the number of toc drivers overall has grown a fair bit.

Compare that to focs, where often depot work is contract dependent and we see the mass lays offs DBS experienced during the recession and the loss of container flow for IM operators. Even now it seems that while FLIM are looking to recruit trainees as more stuff arrives from china, there is some slack in heavy haul.

While many people will love working for a foc, it's more of a roller coaster ride than day in day out toc work.

 

[A-driver]

I was thinking the last 10 years and especially since the start of the recession and financial crisis. The SWT mess was obviously a bus operator thinking he could run a railway the same way and came back to bite him.



Vtxc, I believe was depot closure when they lost Guildford to Brighton as part of the truncating of the xc network a bit.



The Eurostar one surprised me a bit as recent.



Don't know a lot about the Wrexham episode, except that I think that vt werent be too fair on small operators.



My point is really that the number of redundancies from tocs has been pretty small in the last 10 years and the number of toc drivers overall has grown a fair bit.



Compare that to focs, where often depot work is contract dependent and we see the mass lays offs DBS experienced during the recession and the loss of container flow for IM operators. Even now it seems that while FLIM are looking to recruit trainees as more stuff arrives from china, there is some slack in heavy haul.



While many people will love working for a foc, it's more of a roller coaster ride than day in day out toc work.

Apart from SWT the 2 redundancy episodes were for specific reasons. The Eurostar was because they hired staff to work the regional services which then all got shelved leavig a large driver excess. As far as I know Aslef ensured all redundant drivers got priority with qualified driver jobs and pretty much all redundant drivers were either taken back by their old TOC or got a footplate job straight away elsewhere.

The Virgin closure at Brighton saw many moving to other TOCs, again I don't think many struggled to carry on working as a train driver.

 

[Legzr1]

Compare that to focs, where often depot work is contract dependent and we see the mass lays offs DBS experienced during the recession and the loss of container flow for IM operators. Even now it seems that while FLIM are looking to recruit trainees as more stuff arrives from china, there is some slack in heavy haul.

While many people will love working for a foc, it's more of a roller coaster ride than day in day out toc work.

Has to be said that in DBS's case it was a massive knee-jerk reaction to a crisis that didn't really happen - weeks after staff were culled the remaining drivers were working restdays to cover the work and within 18 months more trainees had to be taken on.

Still, I can't imagine a TOC making the same mistake (or ASLEF doing so little to prevent it but that's another story...)

Getting back to the original point - it should be mentioned that anyone that has thrown away a career, travel facilities and seniority would probably be a bit reticent in admitting they'd made a mistake moving to a FOC from a TOC.

 

[LowLevel]

As far as I recall didn't the XC Brighton drivers and guards get displaced to Virgin at Euston as part of the high frequency changes? I'm sure I remember reading about it at the time.

 

[A-driver]

As far as I recall didn't the XC Brighton drivers and guards get displaced to Virgin at Euston as part of the high frequency changes? I'm sure I remember reading about it at the time.

I believe they were offered redeployment at various locations including London and Manchester or redundancy. Quite a few moved to Southern and FOCs in the southeast.

 

[whoosh]

Yes, I believe the union worked hard in the above cases to secure jobs elsewhere for people.

The Eurostar redundancies were after the move to St Pancras. They had about 80 drivers but only needed about 60 with the quicker trips on High Speed 1. They also used the French and Belgian drivers more.

They did make the North of London drivers redundant as well some years earlier, as said above, but I don't think they were all voluntary.


Overall, franchised passenger operators are very secure though really. Eurostar isn't franchised, and Wrexham & Shropshire wasn't.

 

[A-driver]

Yes, I believe the union worked hard in the above cases to secure jobs elsewhere for people.



The Eurostar redundancies were after the move to St Pancras. They had about 80 drivers but only needed about 60 with the quicker trips on High Speed 1. They also used the French and Belgian drivers more.



They did make the North of London drivers redundant as well some years earlier, as said above, but I don't think they were all voluntary.





Overall, franchised passenger operators are very secure though really. Eurostar isn't franchised, and Wrexham & Shropshire wasn't.

Considering most TOCs are so reliant on OT and fairly regularly cancel trains due to lack of drivers id say that train drivers don't really need to worry about redundancy. Chances of it ever happening are so slim.