TOC Specific fares...

[Tracky]

Just out of interest;

Does anybody have any examples of TOC specific fares where the TOC do not operate any direct services over the route?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not a current one, but before LM there used to be "Central/Silverlink" fares from Brum to Euston that required a change in Northampton.

Neil

 

[greatkingrat]

Due to station clustering, there are some TOC-specific fares that are impossible to use.

eg Watford High Street - Birmingham Stns (Ldn Midland Only)

 

[causton]

Any LM Only fare from Polesworth to... (well, anywhere south)

 

[Tracky]

Thanks for responding...

What I am really after is situations similar to Chester Manchester - a set of fares I take issue with.

The Chester Manchester Any Permitted fare is set by ATW - operators of the quickest route - direct passing through Warrington with an hourly service 7 days a week.

Route specific Altrincham fares are set by Northern for the route via Altrincham with direct trains but journey times around 20 mins longer - and less frequent Sunday services.

TOC specific VTWC fares are set by Virgin Trains for use on their trains only. These restrict users to travelling via Crewe and changing trains. I take issue with the implementation of a TOC specific fare requiring a completely different route and a change of train and am interested to find comparable situations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TOC specific VTWC fares are set by Virgin Trains for use on their trains only. These restrict users to travelling via Crewe and changing trains. I take issue with the implementation of a TOC specific fare requiring a completely different route and a change of train and am interested to find comparable situations.

Why do you take issue with it? You don't have to buy it if you don't want to.

Neil

 

[Tracky]

Because I believe them to be unfair.

I'm a member of staff but I'm on the customers side here. And customers are penalised for buying these tickets in error.

 

[Simon11]

So you would rather the customers pay more for their travel? Customers should have the flexibility to get the best price for their journey plan and be able to get assistance from staff if required to decide on the best fare.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'm with Tracky on this...There are several "TOC" restrictions that could be (and in some cases, used to be) implemented as geographic restrictions with the same effect, but which would allow passengers to excess them for use on another route.

Advance tickets are particularly prone to this. See: "East Midlands Trains Only" (formerly "AP Kettering"), "Virgin Trains only" (formerly "AP Rugby"), etc.

 

[Simon11]

If anything, it appears that the industry is looking into getting rid of the Any Permitted fare and keeping the routed fares.

 

[island]

There were some issues with LM Only fares from Coleshill Parkway a while ago.

 

[Starmill]

There are some Virgin Only fares to Carstairs...

 

[yorkie]

Because I believe them to be unfair.

I'm a member of staff but I'm on the customers side here. And customers are penalised for buying these tickets in error.

I share your concerns, but the existence of cheaper fares isn't unfair.

What is unfair is the decision made by the rail industry to charge an excess on a route-specific ticket, yet a ticket with a TOC restriction (which, incidentally, and as you know, appears in the route field!) is treated as a scumbag who holds no ticket whatsoever and can be charged a brand new ticket, potentially without any railcard discounts and at the full Anytime rate.

It's that rule that needs changing!

As there's no effective Regulator, no proper ombudsman, and no passenger watchdog with any real powers, it won't change and unfair practices will continue

 

[Starmill]

I share your concerns, but the existence of cheaper fares isn't unfair.

What is unfair is the decision made by the rail industry to charge an excess on a route-specific ticket, yet a ticket with a TOC restriction (which, incidentally, and as you know, appears in the route field!) is treated as a scumbag who holds no ticket whatsoever and can be charged a brand new ticket, potentially without any railcard discounts and at the full Anytime rate.

Or a Penalty Fare!

It's that rule that needs changing!

As there's no effective Regulator, no proper ombudsman, and no passenger watchdog with any real powers, it won't change and unfair practices will continue

It is. More people should be on the "'outrage bus'" about this one, as it would actually be useful.

 

[Kite159]

Reminds me of being at Milton Keynes

"Tickets marked Virgin Trains only are not valid on this service"
"Tickets marked London Midland only are not valid on this service"

For most of the services (bar the Southern service)

 

[Tracky]

If anything, it appears that the industry is looking into getting rid of the Any Permitted fare and keeping the routed fares.

As I understand it, ATW is not allowed to create a route or TOC specific fare. A TOC specific fare would actually be quite useful as it would give the flexibility to travel on the direct service or travel via Crewe sticking to ATW services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I understand it, ATW is not allowed to create a route or TOC specific fare. A TOC specific fare would actually be quite useful as it would give the flexibility to travel on the direct service or travel via Crewe sticking to ATW services.

While I understand that restriction being to stop the Any Permitted ticket being priced out of reach by the operator that sets it, there are cases where grandfather rights mean the incumbent operator *is* able to set such a fare as they did before that rule applied or when the flow was owned by another operator - Milton Keynes to London is one such flow. In this latter case the price of the Any Permitted ticket has not been abused and is not set at an unreasonable level when compared to the dedicated ones. So should this restriction be rescinded, perhaps?

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Reminds me of being at Milton Keynes

"Tickets marked Virgin Trains only are not valid on this service"
"Tickets marked London Midland only are not valid on this service"

For most of the services (bar the Southern service)

There are I think also Southern only ones, though they have very limited use-cases.

Neil

 

[tractakid]

While I understand that restriction being to stop the Any Permitted ticket being priced out of reach by the operator that sets it, there are cases where grandfather rights mean the incumbent operator *is* able to set such a fare as they did before that rule applied or when the flow was owned by another operator - Milton Keynes to London is one such flow. In this latter case the price of the Any Permitted ticket has not been abused and is not set at an unreasonable level when compared to the dedicated ones. So should this restriction be rescinded, perhaps?

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There are I think also Southern only ones, though they have very limited use-cases.

Neil

Southern Only is travelcards and advances only I believe.

I wonder if the announcements will now say 'Tickets marked VTWC trains only to match the new route restriction.

 

[button_boxer]

There are four different routes for Sheffield to London walk-up fares. The two obvious ones are "via Chesterfield" for the direct route via the MML and "any permitted" which also allows the East Coast route with a change at Doncaster, Retford or Grantham, but there's also "Hull Trains & TPE" (which can be done via Doncaster) and "LM&XC Only" which is presumably intended to be used via Tamworth (though as far as I can tell that's not actually a permitted route).

 

[CyrusWuff]

There are four different routes for Sheffield to London walk-up fares. The two obvious ones are "via Chesterfield" for the direct route via the MML and "any permitted" which also allows the East Coast route with a change at Doncaster, Retford or Grantham, but there's also "Hull Trains & TPE" (which can be done via Doncaster) and "LM&XC Only" which is presumably intended to be used via Tamworth (though as far as I can tell that's not actually a permitted route).

A "routed" fare doesn't need to be for a route that's normally permitted anyway, which is one of the reasons they exist in the first place! A geographic example would be London - Bradford, which has "via Manchester" as an option.

In a similar vein, Arriva Trains Wales "Club 55" tickets between London and Machester have a route of "ATW &LM&NCH ONLY", where NCH = Chiltern.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I get a lot of these on the Portsmouth Direct line. Historically the routes from Havant and Portsmouth to London were 'Any Permitted' and 'Hassocks/Horsham', in 2008 the Hassocks/Horsham route was changed to 'Southern Only' meaning that the tickets could no longer be excessed and thus represented a reduction in options for some passengers. Furthermore the staff at Clapham get asked for the next Portsmouth train and correctly advise people to head to platform 9 for the SWT direct service irrespective of the ticket routing. Passengers then find themselves being penalized when I ask them to buy a new ticket as in a number of cases people are not being told that their tickets are only valid on certain trains. A 'Southern Only' ODTC works the barriers at Waterloo and passengers will often assume it means the ticket is ok to use on Waterloo-Portsmouth SWT services.

 

[causton]

I get a lot of these on the Portsmouth Direct line. Historically the routes from Havant and Portsmouth to London were 'Any Permitted' and 'Hassocks/Horsham', in 2008 the Hassocks/Horsham route was changed to 'Southern Only' meaning that the tickets could no longer be excessed and thus represented a reduction in options for some passengers. Furthermore the staff at Clapham get asked for the next Portsmouth train and correctly advise people to head to platform 9 for the SWT direct service irrespective of the ticket routing. Passengers then find themselves being penalized when I ask them to buy a new ticket as in a number of cases people are not being told that their tickets are only valid on certain trains. A 'Southern Only' ODTC works the barriers at Waterloo and passengers will often assume it means the ticket is ok to use on Waterloo-Portsmouth SWT services.

Indeed, I always have to ask what ticket passengers have before giving them any advice - as they ask "Can I get to Liverpool on that train?" pointing at a Virgin train to Crewe on the boards. Well, yes, but... look at their ticket, and it's an LM Super Off-Peak and it's too late in the evening to get anywhere near Liverpool on LM services this late!

Also shown that people who don't understand, don't care or think it doesn't matter if they don't abide by the rules is the amount of people that get off at Birmingham International after the Virgin TM announces "Double check your tickets, if it is xxx or xxx or xxxx or x please leave at Birmingham International"!

 

[button_boxer]

A "routed" fare doesn't need to be for a route that's normally permitted anyway, which is one of the reasons they exist in the first place! A geographic example would be London - Bradford, which has "via Manchester" as an option.

If the fare were routed "via Tamworth" or something then that would be fine, but in the Sheffield to London case it's a TOC restriction rather than a geographic one which I thought meant the same as "any permitted" but only on certain TOCs' trains.

 

[Paul Kelly]

If the fare were routed "via Tamworth" or something then that would be fine, but in the Sheffield to London case it's a TOC restriction rather than a geographic one which I thought meant the same as "any permitted" but only on certain TOCs' trains.

I agree with you, although ATOC have added Tamworth as a via point to the electronic version of the "LM AND XC ONLY" restriction, so booking engines treat it like CyrusWuff described.