TOC specific -> Any Permitted excess

[cmovcc]

here's my situation:

I go from Whittlesford Parkway (slightly down the line from Cambridge) to Liverpool Street on the West Anglia mainline each day, and have a season ticket.

Every so often I go to Cambridge, and I buy the ticket for Whittlesford->Cambridge for something like £2 a go and go the extra 10 minutes up the WAML rather than the ECML.
On my last renewal I noticed that Cambridge->London ("Greater Anglia trains only") is the same price as my current Whittlesford->London ("any permitted") ticket.

so three questions:

1. if I just have a standard Whittlesford -> London ticket (no restriction on route/TOC), can I excess this up to Cambridge -> London, then go via the ECML (I have paid the full fare?)
2. if not, if I have a Cambridge -> London (Greater Anglia only) ticket, can I excess this to Any Permitted and go via the ECML (this post suggests probably not?)
3. if not, if I have a Cambridge -> London (Greater Anglia only) ticket, and I excess it to the station beyond where I actually want to go (say Waterbeach), the excess would presumably then say Any Permitted, and since the excess overrides the other ticket, could I then go via the ECML (this post suggests maybe?)

if (1) ends up being true and (2) and (3) aren't then clearly I'm not buying the GRT ANG TRNSONLY only one

thanks!

 

[bb21]

• if I just have a standard Whittlesford -> London ticket (no restriction on route/TOC), can I excess this up to Cambridge -> London, then go via the ECML (I have paid the full fare?)

I believe the answer is yes although there are differing opinions on this matter.

• if not, if I have a Cambridge -> London (Greater Anglia only) ticket, can I excess this to Any Permitted and go via the ECML

No.

• if not, if I have a Cambridge -> London (Greater Anglia only) ticket, and I excess it to the station beyond where I actually want to go (say Waterbeach), the excess would presumably then say Any Permitted, and since the excess overrides the other ticket, could I then go via the ECML (this post suggests maybe?)

I don't know what happens when a TOC-specific product is over-distance excessed in this manner. It may not be possible.

Even if it is possible, normally if a TOC-specific product is excessed to an interavailable product, the original TOC restriction applies. So I wouldn't want to try it if I were you. (Some people argue that the excess coupon should comply with Condition 10 of the NRCoC, but I'm not going to revisit the debate on that one.)

 

[cmovcc]

hmm, actually I seem to remember that you can't excess seasons anyway, so this entire question might be redundant.

in (1) I'd have a season ticket from Whittlesford -> London, then from Whittlesford -> Cambridge, so it looks as if condition 19c applies... maybe... it depends on the definition of "journey", which isn't in their list of definitions.

what a headache!
I just want to give the railway an extra few quid to save 30 minutes!

 

[bb21]

hmm, actually I seem to remember that you can't excess seasons anyway, so this entire question might be redundant.

in (1) I'd have a season ticket from Whittlesford -> London, then from Whittlesford -> Cambridge, so it looks as if condition 19c applies?

Ah, that changes the situation then.

Yes, Condition 19(c) applies, as you have one season and one non-season, and you can travel on a non-stop service. (See below.) I remember being told that the inability to excess seasons being the main reason for the existence of Condition 19(c).

 

[CyrusWuff]

Ah, that changes the situation then.

Yes, Condition 19(c) applies, as you have one season and one non-season, and you can travel on a non-stop service. I remember being told that the inability to excess seasons being the main reason for the existence of Condition 19(c).

Except the Cambridge Cruiser services to/from Kings Cross don't go anywhere near Whittlesford Parkway, so a combination of a Cambridge - Whittlesford Parkway ticket and a Whittlesford Parkway - London Terminals Season wouldn't be valid, surely?

 

[bb21]

Except the Cambridge Cruiser services to/from Kings Cross don't go anywhere near Whittlesford Parkway, so a combination of a Cambridge - Whittlesford Parkway ticket and a Whittlesford Parkway - London Terminals Season wouldn't be valid, surely?

Yes, having re-read the question, I now realise that the OP wants to travel on the FCC service, which is of course not permitted.

 

[Haywain]

Except the Cambridge Cruiser services to/from Kings Cross don't go anywhere near Whittlesford Parkway, so a combination of a Cambridge - Whittlesford Parkway ticket and a Whittlesford Parkway - London Terminals Season wouldn't be valid, surely?

I don't see a problem with that, as the wording of condition 19c has been met. What you're suggesting is that the train needs to pass through Whittlesford Parkway in order to not stop there. It is equally valid to say that not passing through equates to not stopping there.

 

[maniacmartin]

That is not my interpretation. It doesn't say the tickets must join up either, but I think it's implicit given the context that they do have to, and the train must pass through the station where they do

 

[hairyhandedfool]

When using two tickets under condition 19, regardless of which of the three options you use, the tickets must cover the entire journey being made, if they do not meet at any point they cannot cover the entire journey.

 

[cmovcc]

When using two tickets under condition 19, regardless of which of the three options you use, the tickets must cover the entire journey being made, if they do not meet at any point they cannot cover the entire journey.

it's reasonably obvious what they intended (not allowing me to be able to take the FCC route), but their sloppy wording and lack of a definition for the word "journey" in the NRCoC doesn't seem to preclude it.

OED, journey: "an act of travelling from one place to another"

my journey is from London -> Cambridge, these tickets "cover the entire journey", just not via that route.

I note the NRCoC just says that the penalty for using an unpermitted route is an excess fare (13e)... well that's seems as if that's exactly what I want to do (pay the railway a few more quid to save myself 30 minutes)!

 

[Haywain]

When using two tickets under condition 19, regardless of which of the three options you use, the tickets must cover the entire journey being made, if they do not meet at any point they cannot cover the entire journey.

I agree. And a season from London Terminals to Whittlesford Parkway, route Any Permitted, combined with a (non-season) ticket from Whittlesford Parkway to Cambridge cover the whole journey from London Terminals to Cambridge.

If the OP had a single from London to Whittlesford, that could be overdistance excessed to Cambridge and happily used on a train from Kings Cross. Condition 19c effectively confers the same rights to a season ticket holder but by buying a second (non-season) ticket. The combination of tickets must cover the whole (point to point) journey being made, but the only requirement to pass through the station where the tickets join is where they are two non-season tickets or two season tickets and condition 19 requires the train to stop where the tickets join.

If the London to Whittlesford season was routed Greater Anglia only, then it could only ever be used from Liverpool Street.

 

[LexyBoy]

Condition 19 doesn't preclude it, but Condition 13 does: You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in....

The excess mentioned in 13(e) would be a change of route excess if the route you take is one permitted for an extant ticket between the stations shown on your ticket, or if not then it would be a new ticket valid for that journey (in this case a Cambridge-London ticket, which can arguably be a Penalty Fare).

 

[cmovcc]

Condition 19 doesn't preclude it, but Condition 13 does:

Note that Cambridge -> Liverpool Street is 55mi 52ch, and Cambridge -> King's Cross is 57mi 38ch (so under three miles difference), so it would seem to be permitted under condition 13.

 

[maniacmartin]

But you can't do a change of route excess on a season. So there is no relevant excess from the tickets held - don't be surprised if asked to buy a whole new ticket.

The described tickets cover a different journey, that happens to have the same origin and destination.

 

[LexyBoy]

Note that Cambridge -> Liverpool Street is 55mi 52ch, and Cambridge -> King's Cross is 57mi 38ch (so under three miles difference), so it would seem to be permitted under condition 13.

But you don't hold a Cambridge-London ticket, you hold a Whittlesford-London ticket. Whittlesford-Kings Cross is more than 3 miles further than Whittlesford-Liverpool St.

If you're talking about using a Cambridge-London GA Only ticket, then this doesn't come under Condition 13 as the GA Only restriction is not a route restriction (despite misleadingly being labelled as such), but a TOC restriction.

I am of the opinion that via Hitchin to Kings Cross is a Permitted Route for this ticket (which is unrouted) - but it can never be used as GA do not run into Kings Cross. See Condition 10 for TOC-restricted tickets, as opposed to routed tickets.

 

[bb21]

If the OP had a single from London to Whittlesford, that could be overdistance excessed to Cambridge and happily used on a train from Kings Cross. Condition 19c effectively confers the same rights to a season ticket holder but by buying a second (non-season) ticket.

I believe that Condition 19(c) was offered as some sort of concession to compensate for the fact that a season ticket cannot be excessed. There is no mention that the exact same rights are conferred, unless you can point me to a source which says that.

The two tickets joining at Whittlesford Parkway clearly do not cover the whole journey by any definition I can think of if travel is not via Whittlesford, so I am not sure how it is possible to argue that the combination is valid for travel via Stevenage.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

it's reasonably obvious what they intended (not allowing me to be able to take the FCC route), but their sloppy wording and lack of a definition for the word "journey" in the NRCoC doesn't seem to preclude it.

OED, journey: "an act of travelling from one place to another"

my journey is from London -> Cambridge, these tickets "cover the entire journey", just not via that route.

I note the NRCoC just says that the penalty for using an unpermitted route is an excess fare (13e)... well that's seems as if that's exactly what I want to do (pay the railway a few more quid to save myself 30 minutes)!

Let's assume for a moment that I have your Cambridge-Whittlesford Parkway and Whittlesford Parkway-London tickets. The Cambridge-Whittlesford Parkway ticket covers only Cambridge to Whittlesford Parkway, the Whittlesford Parkway-London ticket covers only Whittlesford Parkway-London. The only place these tickets meet is Whittlesford Parkway.

If I make two journeys, one to Whittlesford Parkway and then one onward to London, I would have to go to Whittlesford Parkway because that is where my first journey ends and my second begins. QED

If I use both tickets to make one journey from Cambridge to London then I have to go to via Whittlesford Parkway because it is the only place where the tickets touch and therefore the only way my tickets can cover the entire journey under condition 19. QED

Either way it does not matter which journey option I take, I must go via Whittlesford Parkway.

If you use 'Rte Any Permitted' tickets to go via Stevenage, you are off route (to a new destination) on the first and, at best, off-route on the second. You cannot excess two tickets into one (excepting for two singles into one return).

If you are using 'Rte GA Only' tickets, NRCoC Condition 10 makes it quite clear that using a TOC specific ticket on another TOC leaves you open to Condition 2 (liable for a new ticket) or Condition 4 (liable for a Penalty Fare).

Please don't mistake a combination of Cambridge-Whittlesford Parkway and Whittlesford Parkway-London tickets for a Cambridge-London ticket.

 

[island]

I agree with HHF. Your ticket(s) must cover all of the journey you wish to make, not some other theoretical journey you might make sometime in the future.