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TOC-specific advance tickets and gaps in service

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jha4ceb

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I'm booked on the 0745 from Manchester Pic to Edinburgh tomorrow as part of an advance TPE & connections ticket to Aberdeen.

I'm interested in what happens if the 0745 is cancelled (or my connection into Piccadilly is delayed), because the next TPE service from Pic to Edinburgh isn't until 1016 -- a 2.5 hour gap. In that situation, would I be permitted to travel with Virgin from Preston to Edinburgh, or EC from York to Edinburgh, on my TPE advance ticket? Or would I be bound to wait around at Piccadilly for over two hours?

Is there a specific clause in the NRCoC, or the ticket's ToCs, that details my rights in this situation?
 
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headshot119

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Look on the bright side if they do make you wait in pick TPE will give you a full refund under delay repay.
 

northwichcat

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I wouldn't attempt going via York on that ticket unless the cancellation is due to the WCML being closed and you're informed that EC are accepting other operator's tickets for reasonable routes.

If I were you I'd board the 08:15 or 08:45 TPE service towards Blackpool and alight at Preston. Then ask someone who works for Virgin if you can travel on the 09:53 departure for Edinburgh.
 

John @ home

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Is there a specific clause in the NRCoC, or the ticket's ToCs, that details my rights in this situation?
The Advance ticket terms and conditions state "If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey."
I'm interested in what happens if the 0745 is cancelled
You should seek assistance from staff at Piccaddilly.
(or my connection into Piccadilly is delayed)
To be able to help with this part of the question, we would need to know the full details of how you intend to get to Piccadilly, including details of any trains and tickets you intend to use.
 

Flamingo

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The Advance ticket terms and conditions state "If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey." You should seek assistance from staff at Piccaddilly.

However, it also says
If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed).

I would read that to mean that the delay would have to be more that 60 minutes before the "Any train" clause kicks in, either way I would get the ticket endorsed before jumping on a train because the booked one is a few minutes late.
 

34D

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I wouldn't attempt going via York on that ticket unless the cancellation is due to the WCML being closed and you're informed that EC are accepting other operator's tickets for reasonable routes.

If I were you I'd board the 08:15 or 08:45 TPE service towards Blackpool and alight at Preston. Then ask someone who works for Virgin if you can travel on the 09:53 departure for Edinburgh.

I wouldn't advocate doing this without speaking to a member of staff (either at Piccadilly, or perhaps the TPE conductor of this later service) before boarding.

Also bear in mind that you may be instructed to take (for example) TPE to Newcastle.
 
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jha4ceb

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To be able to help with this part of the question, we would need to know the full details of how you intend to get to Piccadilly, including details of any trains and tickets you intend to use.

The ticket is a Standard AP Single from Levenshulme to Aberdeen (TP & Connections), with reservations on the Piccadilly-Waverley and Waverley-Aberdeen legs. The recommended train is the 0719 from Levenshulme but I plan to use the 0711.
 

John @ home

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The ticket is a Standard AP Single from Levenshulme to Aberdeen (TP & Connections)
That's fine. The relevant parts for you of the Advance Fares FAQs are:
Q25 - Can a passenger with an Advance ticket travel on an earlier connecting train?

A: Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.
This allows you to catch an earlier non-reservable train from Levenshulme.
Q22 - Can a passenger travel on any trains other than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A: The following principles apply.

1). Start of the Journey. It is the passenger’s responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the first train. If they miss it due to problems parking, taxi not turning up etc, they must buy a new ticket;

2). Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held.
There seems to me to be a conflict in para 2 between change to another train of the same company and to get them to their destination with the least delay.

If the 0745 Manchester Pic - Edinburgh were cancelled, change to another train of the same company may imply:
0916 Manchester Pic - Glasgow Cen 1228
Walk Glasgow Cen - Glasgow Queen St
1341 Glasgow Queen St - Aberdeen 1620

Although the journey planners allow 15 minutes to walk Central - Queen St., on many days it may be possible to catch the 1241 Glasgow Queen St - Aberdeen 1513.
Getting the passenger to their destination with the least delay may imply:
0756 Manchester Pic - Leeds 0854
0905 Leeds - Edinburgh 1203
1228 Edinburgh - Aberdeen 1448
 

reb0118

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This shows one of the major problems with our fragmented railway. The difference between the next available train and the next available TOC specific train could be significant.
 

Flamingo

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This shows one of the major problems with our fragmented railway. The difference between the next available train and the next available TOC specific train could be significant.

The simple answer, I'm afraid, is don't buy a TOC specific ticket.
 

jha4ceb

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Thanks all. Hopefully everything will go to plan and I won't have to use any of the alternative routes.
 

Greenback

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If you have a FTPE specific ticket why should VWC allow you to catch their train, they get none of the revenue from that ticket.
If your RyanAir flight is cancelled would you expect to wait for the next RyanAir flight or would you expect to catch the next available flight which might be British Airways?

Its the same principle unfortunately, but where TOCs are better is that at times of serious disruption they will allow passengers to transfer.

The answer to that is that the airline industry has never been unified, as the railway industry was under BR. When privatisation was originally on the table, a lot of lobbying and pressue was applied to safeguard some of the flexibility that passengers enjoyed, which is why we still have interavailable tickets at all.
 

reb0118

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The simple answer, I'm afraid, is don't buy a TOC specific ticket.

Are you saying don't buy an Advance then?

When a passenger buys a ticket and complies with all the rules and then one leg of their journey is heavily delayed or cancelled or even delayed by 8 mins* and a connection is missed is that their fault?

Should they be further inconvenienced by having to wait potentially a further two hours to travel on the next TOC specific? This could cause them in theory to miss the last connection of the day to their final destination. I see advance tickets from Cornwall to Scotland on a daily basis, as no doubt do you also, these journeys are time critical, one missed connection can scew them up - having to wait longer for a TOC specific - could be catastrophic!

A few examples will suffice then I'll give you my views.

i)* My Dundee - Edinburgh which offers a 5min connection into a TPE service at Haymarket is late. (Held at Dundee to allow passage of late 1B16 Inverness - Edinburgh delayed due to signal problems at Kennethmont; lost path so held at Tay Bridge (High Girders) to allow EC LDS - ABD to pass - now 12 mins down). Driver made valiant effort to make up time. I had passengers doing parachute rolls alighting at stations to save time - to no avail. Connection not held.:( I had 20+ pax for the TPE most on TPE & Connection advances. Next TPE almost 2hrs later - next Virgin about 50mins later. I could not guarantee that the Virgin would take them - lots of unhappy punters. :cry: but I did endorse all tickets with details of delay. How much better would it have been if I could inform them that yes the Virgin would take them as matter of routine.

ii) I'm standing on the Platform at Lancaster after a good day out with a friend travelling on a £5 First Group Friends & Family ticket. Next TPE to Edinburgh is cancelled - a two hour wait ensures - well not quite as a Virgin train pulls in- Guard recognises me, comes over for a quick chat & asks what I'm doing - when I tell her about the cancelled train she says jump on I'll not see a colleugue stranded. What about my mate and showed his ticket to her (it was before those horrible print at home jobs) - he can come too was the answer. Result. I put a few quid though the till at the shop so Virgin would get a few pennies. The Guard told me she picked up a few TPE advance holders at Oxenholme/Penrith but as it was freezing cold by then she allowed them to board.

The moral of the story is this. When everything is running ok we may be in competition with each other BUT when the proverbial hits the fan we should work as ONE railway. After my experience on that Virgin train I never refuse a Virgin ticket holder travel on my train if they have experienced delay/disruption/cancellation enroute. The goodwill generated by that guard I have repayed 10 fold to Virgin Pax over the years.

As a general rule I prefer passengers who are not booked on my trains to ask first and they don't get priority over our own ticket holders. As a regular traveller myself I have experienced my fair share of delays and know first hand what a nightmare it is when TOC's can't agree an action plan. On the other hand when they work together - traincrew, station staff, control from all affected TOC's it can make such a positive difference. :D


If your RyanAir flight is cancelled would you expect to wait for the next RyanAir flight or would you expect to catch the next available flight which might be British Airways?

Its the same principle unfortunately, but where TOCs are better is that at times of serious disruption they will allow passengers to transfer.

Proper airlines take each others passengers in times of disruption. Its happened to me a few times. They all pay into a common fund for such inevitabilities. Ryanair (tightwads) do not so they're not in the scheme. It's one of the reasons that proper airline tickets are that wee bit more expensive.
 
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Flamingo

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Are you saying don't buy an Advance then?

When a passenger buys a ticket and complies with all the rules and then one leg of their journey is heavily delayed or cancelled or even delayed by 8 mins* and a connection is missed is that their fault?

Should they be further inconvenienced by having to wait potentially a further two hours to travel on the next TOC specific? This could cause them in theory to miss the last connection of the day to their final destination. I see advance tickets from Cornwall to Scotland on a daily basis, as no doubt do you also, these journeys are time critical, one missed connection can scew them up - having to wait longer for a TOC specific - could be catastrophic!
I didn't say it was ideal, and in severe disruption TOC's do co-operate, but if anybody buys a restrictive ticket, then they are leaving themselves open to having to comply with the restrictions. The basic point of a TOC only ticket is just that - the passenger is purchasing a cheaper ticket but restricting themselves to travel on that TOC only. If any delays occur, what rights and expectations the passenger may have are laid out in the T&C, but if these rights are not as wide as the passenger may like, then don't buy the ticket with those restrictions.
 

jha4ceb

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This particular 'TPE & Connections' journey already involves three different TOCs, so the idea that using it to travel on a non-TPE service is inherently problematic seems strange. If it were a 'TPE only' ticket, that might be a different matter.
 

jkdd77

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I didn't say it was ideal, and in severe disruption TOC's do co-operate, but if anybody buys a restrictive ticket, then they are leaving themselves open to having to comply with the restrictions. The basic point of a TOC only ticket is just that - the passenger is purchasing a cheaper ticket but restricting themselves to travel on that TOC only. If any delays occur, what rights and expectations the passenger may have are laid out in the T&C, but if these rights are not as wide as the passenger may like, then don't buy the ticket with those restrictions.

Strictly speaking, this isn't a TOC-only ticket; it's a 'TOC and connections ticket'. I don't know whether this makes any difference in this context?
 

reb0118

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There are lots of conflicts/issues here:-

Advance vs Walk up fares

Toc specific walk up vs any permitted.

At the end of the day we're just the poor sods on the front line trying to get our passengers from A - B (but not via C 'cause that's not a permitted route sir - see my other thread)

On earlies tomorrow so off to bed. Happy posting :)
 

Solent&Wessex

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The answer to that is that the airline industry has never been unified, as the railway industry was under BR. When privatisation was originally on the table, a lot of lobbying and pressue was applied to safeguard some of the flexibility that passengers enjoyed, which is why we still have interavailable tickets at all.

Very true. But BR still had route specific Advance fares (of varying names with varying conditions - much more complicated than the current Advance fares which all have the same conditions regardless of route, price, purchase date etc), and the current TOC Specific Advance fares are - in many cases - cheaper (some significantly so) than the cheapest available Advance fares on the same route in BR days.

So yes, we have maintained the interavailable fares, but also retained - and extended - the Advance fares that are available. In most cases this is to the benefit of the passenger who has a better deal than in BR days.

We could of course abandon TOC only tickets and return to a similar structure to BR Advance tickets (Apex, SuperApex, Advance, SuperAdvance, Holidaymaker, Daypex etc), but that would mean many people paying higher prices.

In simple terms - the interavailable fares are there for those that want them, the TOC only fares are there for those that want a better deal, but sacrifice some flexibility in the process.
 

Greenback

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Very true. But BR still had route specific Advance fares (of varying names with varying conditions - much more complicated than the current Advance fares which all have the same conditions regardless of route, price, purchase date etc), and the current TOC Specific Advance fares are - in many cases - cheaper (some significantly so) than the cheapest available Advance fares on the same route in BR days.

So yes, we have maintained the interavailable fares, but also retained - and extended - the Advance fares that are available. In most cases this is to the benefit of the passenger who has a better deal than in BR days.

We could of course abandon TOC only tickets and return to a similar structure to BR Advance tickets (Apex, SuperApex, Advance, SuperAdvance, Holidaymaker, Daypex etc), but that would mean many people paying higher prices.

In simple terms - the interavailable fares are there for those that want them, the TOC only fares are there for those that want a better deal, but sacrifice some flexibility in the process.

I'm not disputing any of that, and I'm not saying that there should not be TOC fares.

My reply was to answer the wuaestion why the railway system is not like the airlines. Both industries are constantly being compared, yet they are quite different, both in history and regulation.

Maybe BR would have developed Advance tickets in the same way. We shall never know. But if they had, there would have been no arguments about having to wait for a train of the same TOC.
 

northwichcat

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I wouldn't advocate doing this without speaking to a member of staff (either at Piccadilly, or perhaps the TPE conductor of this later service) before boarding.

As the OP journey involves using TPE between Piccadilly and Preston there shouldn't be any issues with them taking the next service involving the same operator on the same route.

On the other hand Virgin may or may not accept it on Preston-Haymarket but if they don't you won't wait any longer for the next TPE service to Haymarket than you would at Manchester.

Also bear in mind that you may be instructed to take (for example) TPE to Newcastle.

I doubt they'd recommend that as it would be a 7 hr 20 minute journey time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This particular 'TPE & Connections' journey already involves three different TOCs, so the idea that using it to travel on a non-TPE service is inherently problematic seems strange. If it were a 'TPE only' ticket, that might be a different matter.

I've bought a ticket in the past that's involved using Northern to Manchester, TPE to Preston and Virgin north of Preston, the ticket stated VWC+Connections so a Virgin conductor could see a TPE+Connections ticket as invalid for boarding Virgin at Preston.
 

Pumbaa

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The simple answer, I'm afraid, is don't buy a TOC specific ticket.

I agree with Off-Peak and Anytime, the TOC specific tickets are easy to distinguish. With Advance tickets (such as in the OP case) it's a little more complex. For example, I have recently booked a ticket that is an Advance, marked 'TPE+Connectns'. No travel on the ticket is with TPE, it is all with Virgin. TPE serve the destination station, but not the origin.

If I were to be delayed, I would obviously consult staff at the station, but travelling on TPE is not an option.
 

Wolfie

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If you have a FTPE specific ticket why should VWC allow you to catch their train, they get none of the revenue from that ticket.
If your RyanAir flight is cancelled would you expect to wait for the next RyanAir flight or would you expect to catch the next available flight which might be British Airways?Its the same principle unfortunately, but where TOCs are better is that at times of serious disruption they will allow passengers to transfer.

If my Ryanair flight was cancelled I would expect to get several hundred Euro compensation under EU Regulation 261/2004. That regulation also puts a burden on the airline to get passengers to their destination in the quickest way by whatever method the passenger chooses (something which truthfully low cost carriers try to ignore!), so yes I might just expect to use a BA flight!

There is also EU legislation with respect to train passengers and delays/cancellations also. However, UK has, in line with the EU legislation, passed an exemption for domestic rail services until 2014. See:
http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/transport/rail_transport/l24003_en.htm
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/2970/pdfs/uksi_20092970_en.pdf
 

34D

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I doubt they'd recommend that as it would be a 7 hr 20 minute journey time.

Eh? 1.5 hrs Man pic-York or 2.5 hours man pic-newc cent, and then 2.5 hrs york-edinb wav or 1.5 ncl-edb. Add-on 2.75 hours for the through york-aberdeen trains.

There may be a reason that isn't immediately apparent to you or I, hence why I advocated speaking to staff rather than assuming.
 

northwichcat

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Eh? 1.5 hrs Man pic-York or 2.5 hours man pic-newc cent, and then 2.5 hrs york-edinb wav or 1.5 ncl-edb. Add-on 2.75 hours for the through york-aberdeen trains.

And what about the connection times?

I was responding to your response saying you might be advised to take TPE to Newcastle:

34D said:
Also bear in mind that you may be instructed to take (for example) TPE to Newcastle.

The next train to Newcastle after the 07:45 to Edinburgh is the 08:22, arriving at Newcastle at 11:05, you then would catch the 11:40 XC service as far as Haymarket and then the 13:32 Scotrail service to Aberdeen arriving at Aberdeen at 15:46.

Now I accept if you got the 07:56 TPE service and change at Leeds to go through Newcastle then you would arrive in Aberdeen at 14:48, but that wasn't what you suggested.

However, note that you can still arrive in Aberdeen at 14:48 if you leave Manchester on the 08:46 towards Preston, so travelling via York would seem a very strange piece of advice to be given out.
 
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