TOC running for West Midlands franchise

[ChrisHogan]

The procurement of the 350/2s and 172s were part of the Govia bid for the franchise, upon award it was contracturalised into the FA, as would have been any similar rolling stock (or other) commitments from the other two bidders.

Not quite, I can't speak with authority about the 350/2s but the obligation to replace the Snow Hill 150s with new DMUs was the price Centro extracted from the DfT for no longer being directly involved with the new franchise. Centro was a co-signatory of the 1997 CT FA and its involvement was one of the reasons that CT was not a happy place mentioned above - Centro and NX had external issues associated by the latter's bus services (Travel West Midlands) that sometimes split over into the CT franchise.

Govia had no option but to replace the 150s with new DMUs - its only decision was whether it would order 172s or whatever other DMUs were available at the time (185s?)

 

[HH]

Parent company NS has come under a lot of scrutiny in the Netherlands. The primary reason for this is of course the Fyra fiasco, but also irregularities at the Limburg tendering* as well as stock shortages have placed the spotlights on NS.

Some politicians have asked for Abellio to be sold off, but this has been blocked by the ministry of Finance (the legal owner of NS). NS / Abellio can't afford another fiasco on the short term though.

Agreed, but NS had already become nervous about Abellio's bids before that, which is the main reason why Anton was replaced by Jeff H.

 

[Harbornite]

The increase in the CrossCity to 6tph was introduced pre-2007 by CT, not LM. The Shrewsbury line was also 3 tph (one Wales & Borders, one CT to Shrewsbury and the Walsall to Wellington stopper) for several years until the SRA decided to reduce services to 2 tph. The end product is that westbound the two surviving services, LM stopper and W&B semi-fast follow each other into Shrewsbury.

I was referring to the more frequent Sunday services.

 

[Heartland]

I think you're confused with what happened.

There were four franchises:
Silverlink- National Express
Central- National Express
Midland Mainline- National Express
Cross Country- Virgin (51%)/Stagecoach

After the remapping we had
London Overground- MTR Laing
London Midland- Go-Ahead (65%)/Kelios
East Midlands Trains- Stagecoach
CrossCountry- Arriva (A British company at the time of the franchise award)
__________________

Yes regarding these franchises Arriva was British, now it is German, but there is an important issued which has yet to answered is why these changes took place. With every new franchise award there is a goal for improvement. This can include one or more of the following:
New stock
New services
Improved service frequency
New stations
Improved internet access

Whether the commitment made in the franchise agreement is followed through, or not, is part and parcel of our current railway operation.

Whilst what happened regarding Central is now a matter of history, the reasoning for this decision is one that does need further discussion. Our railways and railway policy seem to be shaped to favour London. There has been a tremendous increase in the travelling public in the South East and this may have been a factor that led to the set up of Overground. That elements of Central Trains passed to two London centric franchises (LM and EM) is now part of that history. Whether it was the right decision remains in my opinion not the best outcome.

As LM retained the Birmingham Office at 102 New Street, it can be questioned if the former Silverlink HQ was targetted to set up and progress the development of Overground. It must not be forgotten in this regard that new lines were added to the initial North London Railway system and this was an achievement for the franchise process.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think you're confused with what happened.

There were four franchises:
Silverlink- National Express
Central- National Express
Midland Mainline- National Express
Cross Country- Virgin (51%)/Stagecoach

After the remapping we had
London Overground- MTR Laing
London Midland- Go-Ahead (65%)/Kelios
East Midlands Trains- Stagecoach
CrossCountry- Arriva (A British company at the time of the franchise award)
__________________

Yes regarding these franchises Arriva was British, now it is German, but there is an important issued which has yet to answered is why these changes took place. With every new franchise award there is a goal for improvement. This can include one or more of the following:
New stock
New services
Improved service frequency
New stations
Improved internet access

Whether the commitment made in the franchise agreement is followed through, or not, is part and parcel of our current railway operation.

Whilst what happened regarding Central is now a matter of history, the reasoning for this decision is one that does need further discussion. Our railways and railway policy seem to be shaped to favour London. There has been a tremendous increase in the travelling public in the South East and this may have been a factor that led to the set up of Overground. That elements of Central Trains passed to two London centric franchises (LM and EM) is now part of that history. Whether it was the right decision remains in my opinion not the best outcome.

As LM retained the Birmingham Office at 102 New Street, it can be questioned if the former Silverlink HQ was targetted to set up and progress the development of Overground. It must not be forgotten in this regard that new lines were added to the initial North London Railway system and this was an achievement for the franchise process.

 

[northwichcat]

Ownership aside, the logic for the split of Silverlink was around LO. It's not clear what the logic for the other changes was.

I think the Silverlink/Central merger was down to DfT wanting the 350 fleet with one operator and not having services change operator part way through (as was the case.)

I imagine the aim of putting the EMT local routes with the MML services was to create a potentially profitable franchise covering all services (like FGW), opposed to one Intercity franchise and one loss making local franchise (like Virgin and Northern.)

 

[HH]

I think the Silverlink/Central merger was down to DfT wanting the 350 fleet with one operator and not having services change operator part way through (as was the case.)

I imagine the aim of putting the EMT local routes with the MML services was to create a potentially profitable franchise covering all services (like FGW), opposed to one Intercity franchise and one loss making local franchise (like Virgin and Northern.)

Silverlink was reasonably logical, as it had to change anyway due to LOROL.

I feel that you're right about EMT, but that DfT got it horribly wrong. Despite being run by the same group, Central & MML didn't even talk to each other at the time, and that seemed to be throughout the companies, as I recall that at Nottingham the conductors wouldn't even share a messroom.

 

[ChrisHogan]

I feel that you're right about EMT, but that DfT got it horribly wrong. Despite being run by the same group, Central & MML didn't even talk to each other at the time, and that seemed to be throughout the companies, as I recall that at Nottingham the conductors wouldn't even share a messroom.

Sorry but that isn't really correct. There were certainly tensions between CT and MML (and before that between RRC and ICMXC) at various places (Derby station staff refusing to use the LLPA on the Matlock branch comes to mind), these disappeared when Nick Brown was promoted from MD MML to MD CT in September 1998. He knocked some heads together after that.

 

[Heartland]

Yes,

Chris Hogan speaks with the authority of being there, and I agree

 

[the sniper]

I recall that at Nottingham the conductors wouldn't even share a messroom.

I've always been told that Central Trains train crew from others depots weren't even made very welcome in Nottingham's CT mess room, so I can imagine there was no entertaining that idea!

 

[HH]

I've always been told that Central Trains train crew from others depots weren't even made very welcome in Nottingham's CT mess room, so I can imagine there was no entertaining that idea!

And that was well past 1998... Not the only issue that was still extant much later, as I can say, with some certainty, having spoken at length to staff on the ground.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...when Nick Brown was promoted from MD MML to MD CT in September 1998.

Is that a promotion? I'd call it a poisoned chalice.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Is that a promotion? I'd call it a poisoned chalice.

It was only a poisoned chalice because NX had put in a bid that didn't add up, e.g. 1626 staff to run the business against nearly 2500 when franchised. Had CT followed the NX bid, the cancellations on SWT at the beginning of its franchise would have been nothing compared with the cancellations in the Midlands.

Nick Brown was able to demonstrate to NX that its bid was unworkable and the FA had to be renegotiated and that was what ultimately happened as part of W&B remapping.

The NX bid team for the CT bid was made up of two from Gatwick Express and 2 from Travel West Midlands. I can't think of two more different TOCs that GX and CT.

 

[LowLevel]

I've always been told that Central Trains train crew from others depots weren't even made very welcome in Nottingham's CT mess room, so I can imagine there was no entertaining that idea!

MML chose to provide a separate mess room when the Nottingham train manager/customer host depot opened.

The issue with other depots within Central can basically be summed up as Nottingham and Birmingham New Street massively clashing as the main depots (read largest as in several hundred crew based at each) of the two sides of the operation. Neither side liked giving ground to the other leaving a rather hostile after effect. Nottingham resented New Street and New Street resented Nottingham. Both were watered down by the opening of satellite depots at places like Leicester and Wolverhampton.

It's better now but old habits still die hard. For me I get on well with people from all depots and am far happier for it.