TOC only tickets and Penalty Fares.

[Matt Taylor]

Can somebody be PF'd for being on the wrong TOC? For example if somebody jumps on a Euston bound Pendolino at Milton Keynes with a 'London Midland only' ticket to London would it result in a PF or would it require a new ticket to be purchased (given that you cannot excess a TOC specific ticket).

I know that VT don't do PFs but I'm talking hypothetically.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

I think it'd be a new ticket.

TOC only tickets will appear "Route: London Midland Only" and I know you can't be PF'd for being off route...

 

[Lampshade]

What he said ^^^

It might be a PF station but it's not a PF train, therefore a new ticket.

 

[clagmonster]

The conditions of carriage say:
"10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. If you travel in a train with a ticket that is not
valid, the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If you are unable to use a ticket or
any part of it, you may be able to claim a refund under Condition 26 or Condition 36."

Condition 4 states:
"4. Penalty Fares
Penalty Fares are charged by Train Companies at some stations and in some trains. You
may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if:
...
(c) you travel in a train and the circumstances set out in any of Conditions 10,
11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;
..."
Given both of these, I would say if you boarded a penalty fare train at a penalty fare station with an operator specific ticket for the wrong company, you could receive a penalty fare.

 

[yorkie]

What he said ^^^

It might be a PF station but it's not a PF train, therefore a new ticket.

You cannot be penalty fared, whether it is a PF train or not, for being on a ticket for a different company.

 

[clagmonster]

Yorkie, what is the source for your assertion? I presume that I am missing something in the penalty fare rules, as the conditions of carriage look clear cut to me.

 

[Matt Taylor]

What about being on an SWT Portsmouth-Waterloo service with a 'Southern Only' Chichester to London Terminals? SWT operates PFs, and my understanding was that you cannot be PF'd for being off route, my query is whether the rule still applies even though the 'route' is the name of a TOC as opposed to a geographical place.

Coastway to London tickets all used to be routed either 'Any Permitted' or 'Hassocks/Horsham' but Southern discontinued the 'Hassocks/Horsham' route a year ago and replaced it with 'Southern Only'.

 

[yorkie]

I can't find an original source but the question crops up every so often and the answer is always the same. The best quotes I have been able to dig out are these, from 2008, posted by an experienced, and friendly, RPI who is a member of this forum:-

..the Penalty Fare regulations were changed and you cannot issue a penalty fare if a ticket isn't valid due to it the person being off route or the ticket is restricted by type....

...What you put in brackets is your reasoning for finding another option and if you go through the reasons you will not find one that you can issue a PF for....

I can't find a primary source however I did find this, and yes I kow I know this isn't quite the same scenario but it does also come under the same category of restriction that you cannot PF for:-
http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/Main.php?iCmsPageId=134

Will I receive a penalty fare for travelling with a restricted ticket on these services?
No, as laid down in the Penalty Fare Rules any customers travelling on a restricted ticket will be charged the appropriate excess fare in accordance with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

You won't get many quotes like that because TOCs generally don't like to admit where PFs won't be issued or tell us our rights, so it may not be possible to find a quote like that which explicitly refers to wrongly-routed tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about being on an SWT Portsmouth-Waterloo service with a 'Southern Only' Chichester to London Terminals? SWT operates PFs, and my understanding was that you cannot be PF'd for being off route, my query is whether the rule still applies even though the 'route' is the name of a TOC as opposed to a geographical place.

Coastway to London tickets all used to be routed either 'Any Permitted' or 'Hassocks/Horsham' but Southern discontinued the 'Hassocks/Horsham' route a year ago and replaced it with 'Southern Only'.

You cannot be PF'd for that. Also there is a question over whether the change is legal or not. The Hassocks/Horsham Off Peak Return (SVR) is a protected/regulated fare, I believe. Sadly the people who implemented privatisation did not adequately protect SVR fares, in the sense that they can be time restricted to such an extent that arguably it's no longer the same extent, however what is unclear is if the routeing is protected. It would seem odd if it isn't.

 

[EM2]

So what about an FCC only ticket from Luton Airport Parkway to St Pancras and you travel on EMT?
Both TOCs operate PF systems.

 

[Bellwater]

FCC have an agreement with EMT, Luton Airport is a FCC station but you can be penalty fared on an EMT Service from there.

 

[Magicake]

6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use...

I believe this indicates you cannot be PFed as you are breaking the rules of a restriction about which trains can be used.

 

[paul1609]

I can't find an original source but the question crops up every so often and the answer is always the same. The best quotes I have been able to dig out are these, from 2008, posted by an experienced, and friendly, RPI who is a member of this forum:-



I can't find a primary source however I did find this, and yes I kow I know this isn't quite
You cannot be PF'd for that. Also there is a question over whether the change is legal or not. The Hassocks/Horsham Off Peak Return (SVR) is a protected/regulated fare, I believe. Sadly the people who implemented privatisation did not adequately protect SVR fares, in the sense that they can be time restricted to such an extent that arguably it's no longer the same extent, however what is unclear is if the routeing is protected. It would seem odd if it isn't.

Is be surprised if the horsham/hassocks svrs are protected as I believe they were introduced by connex.

 

[barrykas]

I believe this indicates you cannot be PFed as you are breaking the rules of a restriction about which trains can be used.

That applies to time restrictions. The relevant condition for TOC-specific routes is Condition 10, which clagmonster quoted upthread.

But then the National Conditions of Carriage, Penalty Fares Rules and The Manual all contradict each other...kind of.

The "Excess Fares" part of The Manual says you should be sold a new ticket (undiscounted Anytime if there was an "opportunity to buy" before boarding, otherwise the appropriate Single or Return fare, with Railcard discount if appropriate) and directed to the original point of sale to (try to) claim a refund on the unused TOC-specific ticket.

But then it says, "The above is subject to any local instructions." Which covers a multitude of sins!

The Revenue Protection section says, "A Penalty Fare may be charged...for travel without a valid ticket"...Unless it's not valid due to a published restriction (time of day or day of week) as described in the National Conditions of Carriage. (i.e. Condition 12).

And the National Conditions of Carriage (Condition 10) refer to you being treated according to Condition 2 (Full Single or Return Fare) or Condition 4 (Penalty Fare) as if you had boarded a train without a ticket.

I'd personally go down the route of selling you a new ticket, with discount if appropriate, and point you back to the place you bought the original from to seek a refund...Unless it was one of our stations. (Not that I don't want to do the paperwork associated with processing the refund, but it's a lot quicker if you take it direct to them, as it doesn't have to bounce around the industry for a while).

Cheers,

Barry

 

[clagmonster]

Like Barry I think that clause 12 is intended to refer to time restrictions and indeed this is how I would interpret it. However, the phrase "the trains in which they can be used" could be interpreted as referring to an operator restriction, so I suppose with that we get into all the legal arguments about reasonable interpretations and the like, which I don't want to get into as I am not a legal proffessional. I believe there is at least one regular poster who is though.
Yorkie's quote deals with travelling on a restricted ticket and states that passengers with a restricted ticket will not be charged a penalty fare but instead will be ecessed under the conditions of carriage. However, the conditions of carriage in clause 10 states that you will either be penalty fared or sold a new ticket for travelling with the wrong company, so not excessed. Evidently this quote is intended to deal with time restrictions or route restrictions, but doesn't at all say so, so can easily be interpreted as including operator restrictions. Indeed, reading that on its own I think is how I would interpret it. Of course, this can only be used to deal with other operator tickets being used on FCC services and vice-versa.
Similarly, the penalty fares policy when dealing with ticket restrictions and routeing go on to say that a penalty fare won't be charged and an excess will be issued in line with the NRCoC, yet the NRCoC state that a new ticket or penalty fare will be issued when travelling on the wrong company's train. In terms of the routeing rule, however, I think that is irrelevent, as normally when travelling on the wrong company's train you will still be travelling on a valid, or even the same, route as the ticket was sold for.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Was that condition not introduced to cover instances in years gone past where Network cards were not valid on Virgin, Midland Mainline, Anglia and GNER?

For example Network card discounted tickets from London to Chelmsford were only valid on First Great Eastern services and not Anglia (IC) services.