TOC contract expiry dates

[En]

Mr Foster, the new Ribble Valley MPs train 0535 1R14 from Blackpool to Euston was cancelled, no Train Manager and ran empty as 5R14 for the three hour journey probably so that Avanti could reduce their cancellation penalty by 50% ...the same Avanti who (99.9% of the time) won't hire external or external qualified TM applicants only internals from catering / stations "so that they can be trained within the brand".

it also would need to run to the place where it was needed next
as i've asked elsewhere what proprtion of 'spare' sptaff do you consider approrpaite to be available at each and every signing on point , each and every day ?

 

[185]

Assume all the (Preston) spares were utilised, but supposed to be 5-10% at ANY operator. The key question has to be how many vacant lines are there? (left, promoted et al), that's where overtime is often being wrongly relied on covering permanent gaps that they never rush to fill.

 

[En]

Assume all the (Preston) spares were utilised, but supposed to be 5-10% at ANY operator. The key question has to be how many vacant lines are there? (left, promoted et al), that's where overtime is often being wrongly relied on covering permanent gaps that they never rush to fill.

exactly the point in question, also is it possible to get that member of staff (by legal means) to the point required in an acceptable time for them to safely take the duty ?

 

[185]

exactly the point in question, also is it possible to get that member of staff (by legal means) to the point required in an acceptable time for them to safely take the duty ?

As I said, their spares probably had all been used to work uncovered shifts... there aren't enough overtime volunteers, so they have no spare staff.

They did this at another FirstGroup franchise, pocketing extra cash by cutting stations staff to below the minimum, and this resulted in a medium size station left locked up at 7AM, and passengers trespassing via a mainline to access plaforms. They flatly denied it to the RSSB claiming it was some 'union vendetta', then it happened again weeks later ...a local councillor photographed it and it made the papers. Greedy FG don't learn.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2024 ==


How did you know???

Seriously though it worked well when sectorised. Even Regional Railways showed a profit when it was expected to lose money. Network SouthEast worked well and Inter City had the Express routes including the Gatwick Express. I do think GBR should just drop the pretense and just be BR, with a reawakened* BRB at its helm.

*I consider it to be Dormant rather than gone.

GA is the operator thats performing the best so little point in deploying limited OLR resources on that unless its a way of leveraging out the GA mgt team to help out with other failing operators.

 

[Railee]

A much tidied up version of the DfTs war and peace courtesy of the Bring Back British Rail website...

DfT rail contract expiry dates:

15/09/2024 – Greater Anglia
15/09/2024 – West Midlands / LNR
13/10/2024 – South Eastern*
01/03/2025 – Northern*
01/04/2025 – Govia Thameslink
01/04/2025 – Chiltern
25/05/2025 – TransPennine Express*
25/05/2025 – SWR
22/06/2025 – GWR
23/06/2025 – LNER*
20/07/2025 – c2c
18/10/2026 – Avanti
18/10/2026 – EMR
15/10/2027 – XC

*denotes DfT-OLR operator

Although it should be noted Louise Haigh has already mentioned booting Avanti out first.

Source

News - Bring Back British Rail

www.bringbackbritishrail.org

Interesting that the South Eastern contract expiry date is as soon as October even though they have been run by the DfT since October 2021. A lot going on at SE right now - driver recruitment (170), potential new rolling stock order and from the BBC London News tonight the potential of bringing SE back under TfL control!

Can't see that being an easy process due to arrangement of traction, depots and routes - some serve 'metro' (presumably to be taken over by TfL) and 'Kent' services. Ashford High Speed seems easiest but even the London depots have mixed Metro/Kent routes. Same depot but different uniforms, branding, training, performance targets etc. seems complex.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

GA is the operator thats performing the best so little point in deploying limited OLR resources on that unless its a way of leveraging out the GA mgt team to help out with other failing operators.

That's the risk though, using the GA management at other TOCs and spreading too thin

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That's the risk though, using the GA management at other TOCs and spreading too thin

For sure but the industry now needs to make the best use of the limited talent available to set operator wide standards of delivery and leadership on performance. So i seen no reason now why a shadow GBR shouldn't be established asap that sits above OLR to decide the best way and timing to absorb the operators on NRCs.

 

[Clarence Yard]

As I said, their spares probably had all been used to work uncovered shifts... there aren't enough overtime volunteers, so they have no spare staff.

They did this at another FirstGroup franchise, pocketing extra cash by cutting stations staff to below the minimum, and this resulted in a medium size station left locked up at 7AM, and passengers trespassing via a mainline to access plaforms. They flatly denied it to the RSSB claiming it was some 'union vendetta', then it happened again weeks later ...a local councillor photographed it and it made the papers. Greedy FG don't learn.

Those days have long gone because the number of staff employed or the wages they are on now doesn’t affect any Owning Groups bottom line. You just employ the staff numbers the DfT authorise you to have and you run the training regime that the DfT authorises you to run. The DfT pays all the bills. You just pocket the management fees.

That's the risk though, using the GA management at other TOCs and spreading too thin

I suspect that combining c2c and GA back offices might be in people’s minds. The easy wins that get you savings out of TOCs are an obvious first step in the restructuring. GWR are another obvious one to take back “on time” as it is nearly co-terminus with a NR Region.

 

[185]

Those days have long gone because the number of staff employed or the wages they are on now doesn’t affect any Owning Groups bottom line. You just employ the staff numbers the DfT authorise you to have and you run the training regime that the DfT authorises you to run. The DfT pays all the bills. You just pocket the management fees.

Quite sure the wages and staffing costs are paid by the TOC who invoice the DfT who ...just pay it - they've little time to audit staff numbers. If that invoice arrived on my desk, I'd probably contact penguin books regarding this undiscovered great new work of fiction.

 

[HLE]

And yet the DFT remain unaccountable to anyone. The same civil servants who have presided over the mess the system is in, will no doubt remain in post despite a new government.

First question I'd ask, being a new MP, is of the likes of Conrad Bailey and Bernadette Kelly, the top people in the DFT. How are you planning to make up for the millions/billions lost due to your decisions (in bold), that have resulted due to strikes/lack of recruitment/lack of RDW v spare utilisation (shock horror that when things go belly up there's no spare and RD available at home having not been brought in). How do you plan to make up for the billions lost over the last few years?

In the private sector, they'd be toast. Sadly due to civil service rules even Louise Haigh doesn't have the power to get rid of them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2024 ==

Quite sure the wages and staffing costs are paid by the TOC who invoice the DfT who ...just pay it - they've little time to audit staff numbers. If that invoice arrived on my desk, I'd probably contact penguin books regarding this undiscovered great new work of fiction.

Arguably the DFT are the opposite. Several hundred staff working purely on rail micromanaging everything even the ordering of parts for fleet.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

And yet the DFT remain unaccountable to anyone. The same civil servants who have presided over the mess the system is in, will no doubt remain in post despite a new government.

First question I'd ask, being a new MP, is of the likes of Conrad Bailey and Bernadette Kelly, the top people in the DFT. How are you planning to make up for the millions/billions lost due to your decisions (in bold), that have resulted due to strikes/lack of recruitment/lack of RDW v spare utilisation (shock horror that when things go belly up there's no spare and RD available at home having not been brought in). How do you plan to make up for the billions lost over the last few years?

In the private sector, they'd be toast. Sadly due to civil service rules even Louise Haigh doesn't have the power to get rid of them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2024 ==



Arguably the DFT are the opposite. Several hundred staff working purely on rail micromanaging everything even the ordering of parts for fleet.

Hendy wont put up with this and along with Alex Hynes they have the opportunity to reshape the industry and the quicker they setup a shadow GBR the better whilst they wait for legislation to be enacted.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Quite sure the wages and staffing costs are paid by the TOC who invoice the DfT who ...just pay it - they've little time to audit staff numbers. If that invoice arrived on my desk, I'd probably contact penguin books regarding this undiscovered great new work of fiction.

I can assure you that the DfT takes great interest in staff numbers and costs, from their TOC annual business plan process, right through the financial year. The reporting that a TOC has to do these days is quite onerous.

Of course the TOC pays the wages and then all the TOC costs are settled “as one” by the DfT on a periodic basis (see any NRC) but the Owning Group has no incentive to cut costs to strengthen it’s bottom line because it is not on cost risk anymore and cannot profit from any savings. It just effectively does what the DfT tells it to do and pockets the management fees, which can be passed onto shareholders or OG HQ staff, in the form of pay rises and bonuses.

Getting a shadow GBR up and then bringing the TOCs in house and realising some initial savings (perhaps by combining back office activity, on a regional basis?) has to be a priority, given the current financial state of the industry.

 

[43096]

Interesting that the South Eastern contract expiry date is as soon as October even though they have been run by the DfT since October 2021. A lot going on at SE right now - driver recruitment (170), potential new rolling stock order and from the BBC London News tonight the potential of bringing SE back under TfL control!

How is it being brought back under TfL control?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Increase in service will be interesting since all the Nova3s have gone. Wonder what the plans are? Scarborough needs better than the current shuttle service.

Yet still at least one Nova 3 on Ardwick yesterday, even though TPE abandoned them in January and "handed them back" in May.

 

[Railee]

How is it being brought back under TfL control?

Sorry my mistake - definitely not 'back' - just under TfL control.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I can assure you that the DfT takes great interest in staff numbers and costs, from their TOC annual business plan process, right through the financial year. The reporting that a TOC has to do these days is quite onerous.

Of course the TOC pays the wages and then all the TOC costs are settled “as one” by the DfT on a periodic basis (see any NRC) but the Owning Group has no incentive to cut costs to strengthen it’s bottom line because it is not on cost risk anymore and cannot profit from any savings. It just effectively does what the DfT tells it to do and pockets the management fees, which can be passed onto shareholders or OG HQ staff, in the form of pay rises and bonuses.

Getting a shadow GBR up and then bringing the TOCs in house and realising some initial savings (perhaps by combining back office activity, on a regional basis?) has to be a priority, given the current financial state of the industry.

Very wise words and one has to hope with Hendy and Hynes now at DfT they will rapidly get something akin to a shadow GBR setup that can provide a different form of arms length oversight to individual operators in advance of moving to the final operating model.

 

[Goldfish62]

Hendy wont put up with this and along with Alex Hynes they have the opportunity to reshape the industry and the quicker they setup a shadow GBR the better whilst they wait for legislation to be enacted.

I worked under Hendy when he was MD of Surface Transport in the early days of TfL when Livingstone was first elected. Hendy's ability to bring the minds of his superiors, including the Mayor, round to his way of thinking was quite something. I think we are in for some very interesting and positive times for the railways after a totally depressing and torid few years.

But it will all take time. Modern Railways this month reckons that it'll take 10 years (about the same time it took to implement full sectorisation on BR as it happens).

 

[1_on]

Found this online hope this helps

UK National Rail Contracts

List of UK National Rail Contracts (NRCs) with dates, GB timetable codes and description of successors

www.railwaycodes.org.uk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

With 3 months (railway accounting periods) notice required to terminate an NRC (National Rail Contract), it's already too late to avoid extensions at GA and WMT from their 15 Sept 2024 core expiry dates.
Southeastern is already in DOLR hands, but its NRC will need to be extended from 13 Oct 2024.
The next NRC expiry dates on the list are not till 1 Mar 2025 or later, so no urgent action is necessary yet.

Once the legislative timetable for the Railways Bill is known, DfT can make plans to transfer private TOCs to the GBR structure - maybe a year away.
That doesn't mean DfT will not take earlier action against failing TOCs using DOLR.
It also has to decide how GBR (TOCs+NR) will be structured (Regions, Sectors, or something different) and where the devolved operations sit.

 

[Goldfish62]

With 3 months (railway accounting periods) notice required to terminate an NRC (National Rail Contract), it's already too late to avoid extensions at GA and WMT from the 15 Sept 2024 core expiry date.

According to the DfT website both these contracts expire in September 2026:

The rail contract between the Secretary of State for Transport and Abellio East Anglia Limited, dated 10 September 2021, which ends on the expiry date of 20 September 2026.

Abellio East Anglia Limited 2021 rail contract

Rail contract and ancillary legal documents for East Anglia Railways.

www.gov.uk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

According to the DfT website both these contracts expire in September 2026:

Yes, I've seen that. You are referring there to the contract expiry date in the NRC without any interventions.
The DfT can terminate the contract on or after the Core Expiry Date (CED) of 15 Sept 2024, which is when those eager to see private passenger TOCs off the network expect the contract to revert to the DfT.
My point is that is is already too late to meet that deadline for GA/WMT.
By "extend the contract" I really mean that no intervention will be made to terminate it at the CED, and any termination date is at least 3 months away.
I think Labour has got two competing pressures: one is to show action on failing TOCs, the other is to honour contracts which they set up.
I'd expect this week's DfT meeting with the TOCs/NR to be a "last warning" on performance, rather than a strip-contract event.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, I've seen that. You are referring there to the contract expiry date in the NRC without any interventions.
The DfT can terminate the contract on or after the Core Expiry Date (CED) of 15 Sept 2024, which is when those eager to see private passenger TOCs off the network expect the contract to revert to the DfT.
My point is that is is already too late to meet that deadline for GA/WMT.
By "extend the contract" I really mean that no intervention will be made to terminate it at the CED, and any termination date is at least 3 months away.
I think Labour has got two competing pressures: one is to show action on failing TOCs, the other is to honour contracts which they set up.
I'd expect this week's DfT meeting with the TOCs/NR to be a "last warning" on performance, rather than a strip-contract event.

Right, I understand now - thanks for the explanation.

And I completely agree with you on your last two points.

 

[317 forever]

I wonder whether we will just have the TOCs as they are all in state hands, or whether we will just have 1 state-owned operating company?

 

[Goldfish62]

I wonder whether we will just have the TOCs as they are all in state hands, or whether we will just have 1 state-owned operating company?

Expect the whole thing to be completely reorganised over time. But it will take several years.

The easy bit is transferring the TOCs to state ownership. Once that's done restructuring can take place.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder whether we will just have the TOCs as they are all in state hands, or whether we will just have 1 state-owned operating company?

Even if there is one state-owned operating company, it will have to be organised with divisions in some manner. It can't be managed as a single block although one company could give direction to those divisions. Most of the TOC 'boundaries' are fairly logical.

 

[Clarence Yard]

That’s the bit we are all waiting for. Will it be regional, will it be sector or will it be a mixture of the two? There has been a lot of discussion about this - we in the industry await the “white smoke”.

Existing TOC structures seem to be out - savings need to be made.

 

[trebor79]

Working for GA I understood we are now 2026 so don’t know why this shew on X as 2024.

GA is a very good operator from this passengers POV. Trains are clean and run on time, though the continual slow attrition of catering provision is regrettable.
Bringing it into public owners will achieve little IMV.
But they need to fix the departure boards at Norwich, 2 of them were stuck on early morning departures this afternoon and one was completely blank.

 

[dk1]

GA is a very good operator from this passengers POV. Trains are clean and run on time, though the continual slow attrition of catering provision is regrettable.
Bringing it into public owners will achieve little IMV.
But they need to fix the departure boards at Norwich, 2 of them were stuck on early morning departures this afternoon and one was completely blank.

What do you mean by slow attrition of catering provision? I can’t think anything has changed in the last few years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2024 ==

Screens at Norwich are just a glitch. Only been this week and will be sorted asap.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

GA is a very good operator from this passengers POV. Trains are clean and run on time, though the continual slow attrition of catering provision is regrettable.
Bringing it into public owners will achieve little IMV.
But they need to fix the departure boards at Norwich, 2 of them were stuck on early morning departures this afternoon and one was completely blank.

GA needs to be left alone and extended until the new world arrives as there isn't enough expertise at OLR now so no point expending it on GA