to London Terminals

[JBuchananGB]

I have bought an Off-peak return Billericay to London Terminals to use with some Virgin West Coast Sale tickets Euston to Liverpool. (Not possible to get sale tickets originating from Billericay)

My basic plan was to travel to Liverpool Street, then use Oyster to Euston. But now I have thought - would the London Terminals ticket be valid to change at Stratford to London Overground, then at Highbury & Islington to Victoria Line, thence to Euston? Or H&I to King's Cross to walk to Euston?

The Greater Anglia site seems to be willing to sell me the ticket if I select Kings Cross via Highbury & Islington, but not if I ask for Euston ditto.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The Greater Anglia site seems to be willing to sell me the ticket if I select Kings Cross via Highbury & Islington, but not if I ask for Euston ditto.

Highbury & Islington to King's Cross is an interavailable route for the purposes of a National Rail ticket to London Terminals, but the same isn't true for Highbury & Islington to Euston. Interesting route; I don't think I've ever seen it discussed on here before!

 

[benk1342]

Would Billericay to Euston via Stratford and Willesden Junction be valid? Notwithstanding that it would take a lot longer...

 

[alistairlees]

I have bought an Off-peak return Billericay to London Terminals to use with some Virgin West Coast Sale tickets Euston to Liverpool. (Not possible to get sale tickets originating from Billericay)

My basic plan was to travel to Liverpool Street, then use Oyster to Euston. But now I have thought - would the London Terminals ticket be valid to change at Stratford to London Overground, then at Highbury & Islington to Victoria Line, thence to Euston? Or H&I to King's Cross to walk to Euston?

The Greater Anglia site seems to be willing to sell me the ticket if I select Kings Cross via Highbury & Islington, but not if I ask for Euston ditto.

Your ticket is only valid to London Liverpool Street I'm afraid.

There is a thing called IDMS (sorry, I can't remember what the acronym stands for right now) that is used to determine which London Terminal your ticket is valid to given:
- the Origin
- the route code
(the ticket type code doesn't matter given the two pieces of info above)

For Billericay, the ONLY entry is:

<Station>
<CrsCode>BIC</CrsCode>
<LondonTerminalsMappings>
<LondonTerminalMapping>
<LondonTerminals>
<Terminal>LST</Terminal>
</LondonTerminals>
<StartDate>2014-02-19</StartDate>
<EndDate>2999-12-31</EndDate>
<FareRoute>00000</FareRoute>
</LondonTerminalMapping>
</LondonTerminalsMappings>
</Station>

Sorry

 

[Paul Kelly]

Hi Alistair, that is the London Terminals mapping you are talking about - you can download a version of it from here: http://data.atoc.org/london-terminals - I wouldn't agree it is definitive though; last time I looked at it there were a lot of errors and there is no contractual basis for it in the National Rail Conditions of Travel or the National Routeing Guide either.

 

[Hadders]

I agree that it's not valid to Kings Cross.

It doesn't appear to be a mapped route
It's not a direct train

So unless it's within 3 miles of the shortest route (I've not checked to be fair) then it isn't valid.

 

[Paul Kelly]

So unless it's within 3 miles of the shortest route (I've not checked to be fair) then it isn't valid.

I believe it is, yes.

 

[xotGD]

So what is the point of calling a ticket "London Terminals" if it is only valid to one terminal?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I would say it is almost certainly also valid into Fenchurch Street (changing at Stratford, on the rare occasions that you can get a direct train from there to Fenchurch Street via the Bow Curve), and quite probably also into Old Street and Moorgate (changing at Stratford and Highbury & Islington).

 

[jon0844]

So what is the point of calling a ticket "London Terminals" if it is only valid to one terminal?

Because sometimes there is more than one, like King's Cross and Moorgate for GN.

When you had Wagn, I assume you had King's Cross, Moorgate and Liverpool Street (and maybe Stratford) as London Terminals from stations like Cambridge? With perhaps the use of the tube between Finsbury Park and Tottenham Hale to connect the lines further south?

 

[alistairlees]

So what is the point of calling a ticket "London Terminals" if it is only valid to one terminal?

Ah, that is why TOCs are wanting to put specific stations on tickets, rather than "London Terminals".

To be fair, given the amount of debate between us, it does indicate why the general public might find "London Terminals" confusing, and why it needs to be changed. There are signs at Leicester Square Underground, for instance, saying "London Terminals tickets are not valid to / from here". So it's clearly a common problem.

 

[alistairlees]

Because sometimes there is more than one, like King's Cross and Moorgate for GN.

When you had Wagn, I assume you had King's Cross, Moorgate and Liverpool Street (and maybe Stratford) as London Terminals from stations like Cambridge? With perhaps the use of the tube between Finsbury Park and Tottenham Hale to connect the lines further south?

Just KGX, OLD and LST I think. "London Terminals" has never been valid on the tube (with the exception of Kings Cross to Moorgate) so far as I know. Stratford isn't a "London Terminal".

 

[alistairlees]

Hi Alistair, that is the London Terminals mapping you are talking about - you can download a version of it from here: http://data.atoc.org/london-terminals - I wouldn't agree it is definitive though; last time I looked at it there were a lot of errors and there is no contractual basis for it in the National Rail Conditions of Travel or the National Routeing Guide either.

Hi Hadders

It's interesting what you say about no contractual basis in the NCoT. It's an accreditation requirement for TIS to use it, so that seems a bit contradictory. I have never checked for accuracy (I just assumed it was right!). But it's a really interesting point if routeing guide trumps IDMS London Terminals Mapping (I guess it does).

IDMS stands for (I believe) "IPTIS Data Management Service". IPTIS was (is) the system behind NRE (it's now owned by SilverRail) and it was introduced by NRE as part of improvements 5 or more years ago.

London Terminals Mapping is one of the things included in IDMS, the others being nice route names and the like.

 

[Starmill]

I suppose the theory is similar to restriction codes.

The version of the code that applies to your 'contract' is the textual version on the NRE website (or in iKB if you ask at a ticket office - they should be the same...).

But the electronic restrictions data (which I think it's a requirement for an online retailer to use?) are often wildly different.

I came across a fantastic example only the other day, restriction JC.

http://nre.co.uk/JC says simply that outward and return are not valid between 0430 and 0930, with no other restrictions. However, the electronic version of the restrictions say that the ticket is not valid departing Reading, London Paddington or London Euston at all kinds of times after 0930. So which applies? The retailer might be required to sell the tickets in accordance with the electronic restrictions, but the customer doesn't even have access to these, and is undoubtedly only bound by the official textual version. The cleavage between the requirements placed on would-be ticket sellers and the information available to the customer as part of the Conditions of Travel seems to grow by the day.

PS just for fun, the reverse is also true in some cases. Restriciton 9I appears to bar departure from Milton Keynes Central if the customer joins a train which has departed from London Euston between 1500 and 1845 - but the electronic data actually do permit this!

And all of this is before we get into nested restriction codes... (off the top of my head check out WW or CI)

 

[alistairlees]

I suppose the theory is similar to restriction codes.

The version of the code that applies to your 'contract' is the textual version on the NRE website (or in iKB if you ask at a ticket office - they should be the same...).

But the electronic restrictions data (which I think it's a requirement for an online retailer to use?) are often wildly different.

Thanks for the examples Starmill. I hadn't realised there were such differences between electronic data (you are right, that's what journey planners use) and NRE data. I will have to bring this stuff up with RDG as it really shouldn't be the case...

 

[causton]

Thanks for the examples Starmill. I hadn't realised there were such differences between electronic data (you are right, that's what journey planners use) and NRE data. I will have to bring this stuff up with RDG as it really shouldn't be the case...

Try the "Network Rule" - where if you are going from somewhere WITHIN the Network Railcard validity area to somewhere OUTSIDE the area, the ticket is valid for any train going into London and the restrictions only apply to the "long distance" portion.

For example:

Watford Junction to Glasgow.
You can use an Off-Peak Single on any train into London, at 6am, 7am or so, as long as you obey the restriction leaving Euston (which off the top of my head was the 0930 train as the first one).
However Tribute, using the electronic data, said nada to that.

 

[Hadders]

I believe it is, yes.

I've just checked.

Billericay to Liverpool Street is 24m31ch

Billericay to Kings Cross (via Stratford, Hackney Central, Canonbury, Highbury & Islington and Finsbury park) is 28m44ch

If we were to allow the Victoria Line between Highbury & Islington and Kings Cross to be used (due to interavailability) then it would get the additional distance below 3 miles. However the interavailability is only applies to tickets valid between Finsbury Park and London Terminals. I don't see how the ticket can be valid to Finsbury Park so I can't see how the interavailability can be used.

 

[yorkie]

Ah, that is why TOCs are wanting to put specific stations on tickets, rather than "London Terminals".

They're up to something with that, for sure. We need to resist that change. It will cause all sorts of problems for retailers and passengers alike (especially during diversions)

To be fair, given the amount of debate between us, it does indicate why the general public might find "London Terminals" confusing, and why it needs to be changed. There are signs at Leicester Square Underground, for instance, saying "London Terminals tickets are not valid to / from here". So it's clearly a common problem.

Problem is, ATOC want to use that as an excuse to take reasonable routes from us.

The IDMS data is silly; how can they claim Richmond to Euston is any different to Twickenham to Euston, for example? It appears to be yet another example of attempts to restrict passenger rights. Fortunately most booking engines do not apply this non-contractual and blatantly incorrect data.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the examples Starmill. I hadn't realised there were such differences between electronic data (you are right, that's what journey planners use) and NRE data. I will have to bring this stuff up with RDG as it really shouldn't be the case...

A good example: Pangbourne to Dorking Deepdene & "off peak" tickets ?

This sort of thing is surprisingly widespread. It's just the tip of the iceberg and puts online booking sites at a severe disadvantage (compared to a ticket office) and confuses their customers.

 

[Paul Kelly]

If we were to allow the Victoria Line between Highbury & Islington and Kings Cross to be used (due to interavailability) then it would get the additional distance below 3 miles. However the interavailability is only applies to tickets valid between Finsbury Park and London Terminals. I don't see how the ticket can be valid to Finsbury Park so I can't see how the interavailability can be used.

Very good point (the bit I have highlighted) - I had forgotten about that. It's fairly obvious to a human but very tricky for an online journey planner to determine.

 

[jon0844]

Just KGX, OLD and LST I think. "London Terminals" has never been valid on the tube (with the exception of Kings Cross to Moorgate) so far as I know. Stratford isn't a "London Terminal".

Perhaps not, but I assume if you had a London Terminals ticket you could exit at Stratford without problems, even though technically you'd be expected to change and take a train to LST.

 

[Hadders]

Perhaps not, but I assume if you had a London Terminals ticket you could exit at Stratford without problems, even though technically you'd be expected to change and take a train to LST.

An Any Permitted Cambridge to London Terminals ticket is valid to Kings Cross, Old Street and Moorgate via the GN route and to Liverpool Street via the West Anglia Mainline. Starting/finishing short (eg at Stratford would be allowed)

 

[alistairlees]

A good example: Pangbourne to Dorking Deepdene & "off peak" tickets ?

This sort of thing is surprisingly widespread. It's just the tip of the iceberg and puts online booking sites at a severe disadvantage (compared to a ticket office) and confuses their customers.

That restriction (P5) is mad in the way it is formulated, never mind the fact that it is different from what it says on NRE. I really hadn't appreciated this was so widespread an issue. Cheers Yorkie

 

[JBuchananGB]

Thank you everyone for all the interesting information. I guess I will stick with the original intention and use Oyster to get between Liverpool Street and Euston when the time comes.
Excluding the Oyster component, the return fare for 2 people Billericay to Liverpool was £69.90, which is a pretty good price. Would probably have been even less if Virgin would sell through tickets in their ticket sale.

 

[Camden]

They're up to something with that, for sure. We need to resist that change. It will cause all sorts of problems for retailers and passengers alike (especially during diversions)

Noticed the other week when buying a London to Liverpool ticket that these had changed. Used to be London Terminals to Liverpool Stations, but I was given Euston to Lime Street. Annoying as I often use the Merseyrail to get to James Street at the other end.

 

[Richard_B]

The Greater Anglia site seems to be willing to sell me the ticket if I select Kings Cross via Highbury & Islington, but not if I ask for Euston ditto.

If the walking option is acceptable to you, and if you can get the planner to give you an itinerary for that route, surely that is all the on-the-day validity you need? Even if the planner shouldn't be giving out that route.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Noticed the other week when buying a London to Liverpool ticket that these had changed. Used to be London Terminals to Liverpool Stations, but I was given Euston to Lime Street. Annoying as I often use the Merseyrail to get to James Street at the other end.

Would that be a "Virgin only" advance, by any chance? I think technically these shouldn't be valid on Merseyrail, but in my experience, having turned up at James Street once trying to get to Lime Street to connect onto such an advance, the booking clerk refused to take any money from me once he became aware that I had an ticket issued from "Liverpool Stations". (I was attempting to buy a single to Lime Street.)

 

[Joe Paxton]

Ah, that is why TOCs are wanting to put specific stations on tickets, rather than "London Terminals".
...

They're up to something with that, for sure. We need to resist that change. It will cause all sorts of problems for retailers and passengers alike (especially during diversions)

Problem is, ATOC want to use that as an excuse to take reasonable routes from us.

The thing is I suspect that the "London Terminals" issue is actually a concrete example given by many passengers regarding confusing train tickets.

I don't think the rationale behind "London Terminals" is spelt out or even suggested in any current publication or information for passengers.

 

[bb21]

The rationale behind getting rid of London Terminals is sound. How it is implemented may cause cries of foul-play when some little used routes are deleted.

To most passengers of course they make little difference, and the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.

 

[yorkie]

The rationale behind getting rid of London Terminals is sound. How it is implemented may cause cries of foul-play when some little used routes are deleted.

To most passengers of course they make little difference, and the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.

This sounds very worrying indeed. Very disappointed to read this!