Titanic

[102 fan]

Only Belfast could name an area after a maritime disaster!

 

[185]

Look on the bright side. The Austrians have a village called F***ing next to a mountain called W**k.

 

[SS4]

Titanic was a feat of [at that time] Irish engineering. Sure she sank but she was still a very impressive ship. It beats naming it after her sister ship Lusitania

 

[RPM]

Titanic was a feat of [at that time] Irish engineering. Sure she sank but she was still a very impressive ship. It beats naming it after her sister ship Lusitania

Not that it was ever likely to have been named after Lusiania as that ship wasn't built in Belfast... Titanic is Harland & Wolff's most famous ship and its sinking was no fault of the builder, so why not?

 

[Oswyntail]

Titanic was a feat of [at that time] Irish engineering. Sure she sank but she was still a very impressive ship. It beats naming it after her sister ship Lusitania

***Historic pedant at large ***
The Lusitania was in no way a sister ship, as it was built in Glasgow for Cunard. The sister ships of the Titanic, built for White Star Lines to compete with Lusitania, were Olympic and Gigantic (renamed, IIRC, Britannic).
And, "at that time", as today, it is British engineering in Belfast. The whole of Ireland was British. (Technically still is, though I would hate to open that can of wriggly things). But I agree, the ship was a magnificent feat of engineering, that, unfortunately, had its main weakness exposed in high-profile circumstances. I wonder how many headline acts have been similarly flawed, but had the problem discovered and rectified before it was too late.

 

[kylemore]

***Historic pedant at large ***
The Lusitania was in no way a sister ship, as it was built in Glasgow for Cunard. The sister ships of the Titanic, built for White Star Lines to compete with Lusitania, were Olympic and Gigantic (renamed, IIRC, Britannic).
And, "at that time", as today, it is British engineering in Belfast. The whole of Ireland was British. (Technically still is, though I would hate to open that can of wriggly things). But I agree, the ship was a magnificent feat of engineering, that, unfortunately, had its main weakness exposed in high-profile circumstances. I wonder how many headline acts have been similarly flawed, but had the problem discovered and rectified before it was too late.

Sorry to be an Uber-pedant but the Lusitania was not built in Glasgow but in Clydebank then an independant town from Glasgow.
I agree however that the men who built the Titanic would been uncomfortable with being called Irish, they would have described themselves as British or Ulstermen, but as you say thats a can of worms!
Contrary to popular belief the Titanic was not particularly technically advanced, it can be said that the Lusitania and her Tyneside built sister the Mauritania where more advanced though 4 or 5 years older. The Titanic's main engines where steam reciprocating engines then rapidly becoming obsolete for the largest Atlantic steamers, the Lusitania was fitted with Turbine engines, a technology in which the Clyde builders where world leaders having produced the world's first commercial turbine ship in 1901 and the first turbine liners the Victorian and Virginian in 1904/5.

 

[Barrett M95]

Sorry to be an Uber-pedant but the Lusitania was not built in Glasgow but in Clydebank then an independant town from Glasgow.

A pedant p***ing contest. Never fails to amuse me.

 

[Hydro]

A pedant p***ing contest. Never fails to amuse me.

To be pedantic, it's an exchange of information regarding the precise location of the construction of the ship "Lusitania". At no point did anyone actually undertake a urine/distance comparison for competitive purposes between two or more consenting parties.

 

[Oswyntail]

Sorry to be an Uber-pedant but the Lusitania was not built in Glasgow but in Clydebank then an independant town from Glasgow.....

I bow to the superior pedant. I suspect Mr M95 is simply jealous and taking the ****!

 

[Barrett M95]

I bow to the superior pedant. I suspect Mr M95 is simply jealous and taking the ****!

To be pedantic, I am indeed extracting the urine, but am far from jealous!


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be pedantic, it's an exchange of information regarding the precise location of the construction of the ship "Lusitania". At no point did anyone actually undertake a urine/distance comparison for competitive purposes between two or more consenting parties.

Sometimes I wish this board had a "like" option.

 

[kylemore]

It's all fun, it's rare indeed that I get to show off my shipping knowledge on this forum so I could'nt help myself!

 

[4SRKT]

so I could'nt help myself!

You mean you've wet yourself? All this talk of urine has got me confused.

 

[Yew]

This thread is awesome


She was fine when she left Belfast anyway. And I think brittanic was laid down as gigantic, but only sailed as brittanic. Also Olympic rammed a uboat

 

[RPM]

Also Olympic rammed a uboat

Also rammed and sank the Nantucket Lightship, although that one was an accident.

 

[Oswyntail]

They do sound a feisty trio of ladies, with a penchant for bumping into things

 

[Hydro]

They do sound a feisty trio of ladies, with a penchant for bumping into things

Well one of them did go down easily, I'd call that feisty.

 

[AlterEgo]

The whole of Ireland was British. (Technically still is, though I would hate to open that can of wriggly things).

How is the whole of Ireland still British?

 

[ole man]

So who's fault was it?

 

[kylemore]

How is the whole of Ireland still British?

They do sound a feisty trio of ladies, with a penchant for bumping into things

Yes unfortunately what the Britannic bumped into was a mine. All aboard would have survived if the Master had not decided to beach her (she was only 2 miles off shore), in the confusion lifeboats were lowered only to be smashed to pieces along with the occupants by the still rapidly spinning screws which had become exposed as the vessel rapidly settled by the head.
Incidently the Brittanic was to be named Gigantic, the three sisters were to be named after the three races of ancient Greek mythical giants, the "Olympians", the "Titans" and the "Giants" themselves, however after the Titanic disaster it was felt that Gigantic was inappropriate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How is the whole of Ireland still British?

Think he means that the island of Ireland is geographically part of the "British Isles" which is not a political unit but simply a geographical one for the collection of islands off the north west coast of the European mainland, similarly for instance Norway is in "Europe" but not in the European Union.

 

[Oswyntail]

Y...
Think he means that the island of Ireland is geographically part of the "British Isles" which is not a political unit but simply a geographical one for the collection of islands off the north west coast of the European mainland, similarly for instance Norway is in "Europe" but not in the European Union.

Thanks - your eloquence is exemplary

 

[Peter Mugridge]

And we must not forget the conspiracy theory must we?!

In this instance, the theory is that Olympic and Titanic switched identities at Belfast after Olympic was badly damaged in a collision with HMS Hawke in the Solent and sent back for repairs. Apparently she was found to be uneconomic to repair fully, so they switched the IDs and intended to stage a sinking from which everyone was to be rescued - all part of an insurance scam.

Unfortunately they sank in the wrong place and the rescue ship didn't twig in time because they were expecting the distress signals to come from a different direction.

http://www.titanic-titanic.com/titanic_conspiracy_theory.shtml

Seeing the "for" and "against" sides in this theory argue it out can be quite lengthy...

 

[kylemore]

And we must not forget the conspiracy theory must we?!

In this instance, the theory is that Olympic and Titanic switched identities at Belfast after Olympic was badly damaged in a collision with HMS Hawke in the Solent and sent back for repairs. Apparently she was found to be uneconomic to repair fully, so they switched the IDs and intended to stage a sinking from which everyone was to be rescued - all part of an insurance scam.

Unfortunately they sank in the wrong place and the rescue ship didn't twig in time because they were expecting the distress signals to come from a different direction.

http://www.titanic-titanic.com/titanic_conspiracy_theory.shtml
...

It all comes down to the slightly different porthole arrangements on the foc'sle. Quite convincing until you think about all the people who would have to keep schtum!
Although there was a lot of dodgy stuff going on, the British enquiry tho not the American one was a whitewash.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Oh, don't forget the propellor number found on the wreck...!!

According to official records, Olympic was repaired with the starboard propellor intended for Titanic and stamped with Titanic's hull number.

Apparently the starboard propellor on the wreck carries Titanic's hull number despite that prop having been put on Olympic.



Now, I think this theory assumes that Olympic's repaired propellor went onto Titanic? But what is not known is whether that propellor was re-stamped with Titanic's hull number... If it was, surely that would sink the conspiracy theory on the spot?

My verdict: The prop blade with the hull number is inconclusive and neither supports nor rejects the conspiracy. Although if it was me, I'd have certainly re-stamped the blades to match the hull number...

 

[HST Power]

Titanic conspiracy theories?!

This is ridiculous!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

At risk of veering slightly off topic, there has just been a milestone in another long running shipping story. It involves another ship built at Clydebank, sinking with great loss of life and a government cover-up.

It was the Lancastria, which went down in 1941 with around 4000 people on board (numbers vary). It was rescuing allied troops from France and was ordered by Government to stay and pick up many more than it was designed to carry. It did and was hit, sinking with massive loss of life. The Government put a 'D Notice' on the incident and very little was ever reported, families' requests for an acknowledgement, a remembrance or a commemorative plaque have been persistently refused by the UK Government.

However, in an act of defiance against Whitehall, the Scottish Government HAS agreed to a commemorative event and statue, which was unveiled on the banks of the Clyde just 2 weeks ago, attended by the few remaining survivors and the families of many who died. It was attended by Scotland's First Minister and others, but with no presence from the UK Government.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At risk of veering slightly off topic, there has just been a milestone in another long running shipping story. It involves another ship built at Clydebank, sinking with great loss of life and a government cover-up.

It was the Lancastria, which went down in 1941 with around 4000 people on board (numbers vary). It was rescuing allied troops from France and was ordered by Government to stay and pick up many more than it was designed to carry. It did and was hit, sinking with massive loss of life. The Government put a 'D Notice' on the incident and very little was ever reported, families' requests for an acknowledgement, a remembrance or a commemorative plaque have been persistently refused by the UK Government.

However, in an act of defiance against Whitehall, the Scottish Government HAS agreed to a commemorative event and statue, which was unveiled on the banks of the Clyde just 2 weeks ago, attended by the few remaining survivors and the families of many who died. It was attended by Scotland's First Minister and others, but with no presence from the UK Government.

Make no apology for this posting and I am sure that a reading of this will make people think of what was concealed by Government edict for so very many years. A terrible loss of life (during a wartime situation) that was supposed to actually save lives.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . A terrible loss of life (during a wartime situation) that was supposed to actually save lives.

Yes. Thanks.

Isn't it ironic that so many people have become aware of unlikely conspiracy theories involving the loss of the Titanic, but are unaware of this, Britains biggest maritime loss of life, which really has been 'hushed up' for decades?
It was rumoured that Winston Churchill ordered the gagging of the incident to avert the risk of lowering morale (which was probably a contributory factor), but it seems more likely that it was to conceal the error of judgement (by Naval Command, and perhaps by Churchill himself) which had instructed the Lancastria's Captain not to depart on reaching its capacity but to remain for thousands more to board and then to leave without a Navy escort (so as not to attract enemy attention, but also to leave thousands unprotected).
That the MoD persists in its silence over this error and loss of life is both revealling and shameful. The Official Report into the tradgedy has never been released.

 

[kylemore]

The involvement of Churchill is interesting as he is implicated in the Loss of the Lusitania in 1915.
Evidence is growing following several recent dives on the wreck that she was indeed carrying contraband (denied at the time and ever since) making her a legitimate target, and that contraband included munitions and explosives. This contributed to her sinking in barely 20 mins from a single torpedo hit. Nobody was more amazed at this than the U-Boat commander watching through his periscope!
The is evidence the Lusitania was put in harm's way (Churchill was the govt minister in charge of the Admiralty) in the hope that such a loss (involving serious American loss of life) would inflame anti-German feeling in the US even to the point of them entering the war (it took another two years however for the US to come in the allies side).

 

[deltic1989]

So who's fault was it?

I'm opening myself up to the pedants here, but here goes. the Titanic disaster happened due to 3 critical factors. Those being, poor design, poor building and ,poor seamanship.

Poor Design
The ship was designed with watertight bulkheads the idea of which being to stop water from spreading throughout the ship and sinking her through the effect of free surface. The bulkheads however were only designed to go up as far as E deck where they stopped and there was no watertight ceiling to prevent water from sloshing over the top and doing presicely what the bulkheads were ment to prevent.

Poor Building

As we all know Titanic struck the fatal iceberg on her starboard side and the lower reaches of the iceberg below the waterline ripped a gash along the side below the water line. The gash was ripped not in the middle of the Hull plate but at the join wherethe rivets popped out one by one underthe pressure. This was because poor quality rivets were used in the construction, had better quality rivets been used then the Hull wouldhave been less likely to have been breached so easily.

Poor Seamanship

On the night she sank the wireless operators recived many warnings of ice in thier area only one of which ever reached Captain Smith. Titanic was racing along at maximum speed (around 23 knots) in an area that the crew knew full well was highly populated with ice. the lookouts in the crows nest were not provided with field glasses in order to spot ice as these had been locked up and the key left in Southampton. Even when the iceberg was sighted the wrong action was taken, the officer of the watch ordered full astern and a hard port turn . Thefull astern order slowed the ship and thus slowed the turn. The correct action wouldhave been to commence a hard port turn at 23 knots in which case the ship would have missed the iceberg completely and un damaged, or to have rammed the berg head on pusing the bow back onto the forcastle collision bulkhead which wouldhave held and not let any water in as the fore collision bulkhead wastheonly one onthe ship that reached the maindeck and was watertight capped.

(ive taken formulatedthe above opinions from knowledge of shipping and from the official report ofthe disaster)
It is true to say that the Olympic class liners were fond of bumping into things Olyimpic hit a lightship a warship and a submarine. Titanic hit an iceberg and Britanic was finished off by hitting a mine. not the luckiest class of ships inthe world.

 

[ole man]

Not that it was ever likely to have been named after Lusiania as that ship wasn't built in Belfast... Titanic is Harland & Wolff's most famous ship and its sinking was no fault of the builder, so why not?

No fault of the builder? I'm agreeing with Deltic1989 the ship was poorly designed and the work was even poorer.
You disagree? then come back with why is wasn't build badly, i dare you