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Titanic

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kylemore

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And where did the rivets come from? Scotland (not sure whether it was Glasgow or Motherwell) - so we can't be too proud on that one!
Mind you the standard was specified by the builder and they knowingly did'nt specify the highest standard on cost grounds.
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Also I believe it was the intention of the officer of the watch to "port the helm" ie to turn the helm in the opposite direction after a certain amount of time, this was due to the tendency of the stern to continue ahead due to the sheer weight of the ship and the way on her at a speed of 25mph! The action of porting helm was to avoid the "arse end" from hitting even if the bow did'nt!
However there was'nt enough time and she hit.
It may well that she would have lived if she had hit the Berg head on, this had happened to large steamers before (including an earlier White Star steamer). But it would been a brave officer who in an instant would decide to smash the pride of the White Star line into a berg at high speed!
Anyway this would have condemned every person in the foc'sle area maybe even further back to death, with even further back widespread carnage as 40 odd thousand tons comes to a complete halt from 25mph instantly!
 
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mbonwick

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More appropriate collision avoidance action would have been to put the helm hard to port, and at the same time put the port engine astern.

Worth remembering that Titanic's main engine could not be reversed, so when it was put astern it actually just stopped, reducing the water flow over the rudder and therefore the rudders effectiveness.
 

kylemore

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More appropriate collision avoidance action would have been to put the helm hard to port, and at the same time put the port engine astern.

Worth remembering that Titanic's main engine could not be reversed, so when it was put astern it actually just stopped, reducing the water flow over the rudder and therefore the rudders effectiveness.

That might have made a difference, I presume the officer did what he had been taught to do when confronted with an obstruction dead ahead.
The Titanic's "main" engine(s) where the two Recipricators on the wing screws, the single Turbine on the centre screw was secondary, designed to enhance her top speed and drawing low pressure steam from the main engines. But you're right if it had been kept going it might have helped, however would it not still be spinning (I may be wrong on this) as cutting off steam would still leave it turning for a time unlike the main engines?
 

Peter Mugridge

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Binoculars wouldn't have made any difference given the conditions.

Indeed; in flat calm on a clear but moonless night it would have been far more effective to have had a forward lookout just above the waterline ( not that anywhere existed to do this, the foc's'le would have been the lowest practicle location ) as the bulk of the iceberg would have blotted out stars quite noticably from some distance away. In a truly dark sky location, stars are far brighter than you could imagine; it would be far more noticable than even in the painting below.
 

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mbonwick

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But you're right if it had been kept going it might have helped, however would it not still be spinning (I may be wrong on this) as cutting off steam would still leave it turning for a time unlike the main engines?

Think that would depend on how the turbine was clutched to the shaft. Even if it was still spinning it wouldn't be forcing water back over the rudder.
 

102 fan

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I persomally find it hard to believe that a floating iceberg was able to make a riveted plate buckle.
 

RPM

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No fault of the builder? I'm agreeing with Deltic1989 the ship was poorly designed and the work was even poorer.
You disagree? then come back with why is wasn't build badly, i dare you

Absolutely not the fault of the builder. Titanic was a well-built, well-designed, safe ship. The point that so many people fail to grasp is that the accident that sank Titanic was a one-in-a-billion freak event that was totally unforeseeable.

The Olympic class ships were built to tried and tested design principles and actually incorporated safety features far in excess of what anyone imagined would ever actually be required, hence the propensity of the press at the time to use the work "unsinkable". (It is worth saying at this point that the neither the builders nor the owners ever used that term in relation to Olympic or Titanic, although the Shipbuilder magazine did describe Olympic as “practically unsinkable”). The worst damage anyone imagined could be sustained to a liner was collision damage at the intersection point between two watertight compartments, thus flooding both compartments. This is exactly what happened to Olympic when she collided with the Hawke and she survived the accident easily. The flooding of two compartments, even two at the extreme bow or stern end is not enough to pull the hull down sufficiently to allow water to pour over the next bulkhead and flood the next compartment. So based on what was known at the time, the bulkhead design was sound. Post-Titanic disaster we might know different but they didn’t know that in 1910. Even if that had been considered at the time, the chances of a ship sustaining damage to five watertight compartments was (and still is) infinitesimally small. You simply cannot design a ship to survive a set of circumstances that have never occurred before and are not readily imaginable. It should also be understood that there are many ships at sea today that have fewer anti-flooding measures than Titanic. Even by today’s standards Titanic’s design is pretty sound.

It has sometimes been alleged that longitudinal watertight bulkheads should have been incorporated in the design rather than just transverse bulkheads. The problem with longitudinal bulkheads is they do not allow the ship to flood evenly across its beam, which means that once the hull is breached the vessel immediately takes on a severe list. This creates two problems. Firstly it drags apertures such as open portholes and engine room outlets beneath the waterline and thus increases the rate of flooding. Secondly it makes evacuation of the ship extremely difficult because the lifeboats on the upper side of the ship cannot be launched and those on the lower side of the ship cannot be loaded because gravity causes them to swing out too far from the side of the ship. Longitudinal bulkheads were not often used on passenger ships but the Cunarders Lusitania and Mauretania had them because they were part-funded and part-specified by the Admiralty on the condition that they could be used as Armed Merchant Cruisers in the event of war. In any case they played no part in preventing Lusitania from sinking after a single torpedo shot.

As for the ship being badly built there is no evidence for this at all. Harland & Wolff built literally hundreds of ships and have at no time been known as a shoddy builder. Quite the opposite in fact. The Titanic’s hull did not fail structurally in any way that is indicative of poor workmanship or materials. Where there has been structural failure it has simply been down to the quality of materials that were available at the time. These imperfections in the quality of the steel would have applied equally to any ship from any builder of the era. It is worth noting that when Olympic collided with Hawke she snapped off the warship’s armoured battering ram – hardly the sort of feat one would associate with a poorly constructed ship.

Much rubbish has been spouted about the quality of the steel used in the rivets that were used to joint the hull plates of Titanic. The story put forward by a TV documentary a few years ago was that Harland & Wolff cut corners and saved money by using inferior quality steel for these rivets. It’s a pity the good scientific research into the metallic structure of the rivets was marred by appalling historical research into Harland & Wolff. Yes, the rivets did contain imperfections, and yes, it was the failure of the rivets that caused Titanic to flood but their use had nothing to do with cost cutting – that is a laughable suggestion. Harland & Wolff used that steel because it is what they had always used and it had always performed perfectly adequately. So why use anything else? And indeed those same rivets served perfectly well in Olympic’s hull for her entire career and in the hulls of hundreds of other ships without incident or failure. They just happened to end up as the weak link in a single freak accident.
I described the idea of Harland & Wolff cost-cutting as laughable. Here’s the reason why: all the ships built by H&W for White Star Line (up until the Doric of 1922 IIRC) were built on a “cost plus” basis. That means that rather than having to squeeze a profit margin out of the overall cost of the ship H&W could build the ship to the exact specification of the customer then add an agreed profit onto the final price. It is an arrangement that, if anything, would incentivize the builder towards being lavish rather than cost cutting. The idea that they deliberately chose inferior steel to save money is clearly ludicrous.
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I persomally find it hard to believe that a floating iceberg was able to make a riveted plate buckle.

It is more feasible than it seems. Icebergs have a huge mass and the crystalline structure of ice is such that enourmous pressure can be exerted onto a very small surface area.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Did you paint that? I have a similar painting of 'Titanic's last sunset' hanging up in my office.

Yes, I did - over 20 years ago. it's the most frustratingly awkward painting to photograph because of the very similar dark colours needed throughout combined with the natural glossiness of oil paints. the photograph isn't perfect, but it's the best I've managed!
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It is more feasible than it seems. Icebergs have a huge mass and the crystalline structure of ice is such that enourmous pressure can be exerted onto a very small surface area.

Indeed; plus iceberg ice has usually been highly compressed at the bottom of a deep glacier for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. It's harder than rock.
 

HST Power

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Yes, I did - over 20 years ago. it's the most frustratingly awkward painting to photograph because of the very similar dark colours needed throughout combined with the natural glossiness of oil paints.

I do a bit of painting and drawing. I can do a decent HST but I'm very fastidious and have a tendency to go ballistic and throw everything out if even the slightest bit of detail is wrong. Perfectionism has its prices!

I have a set of water color paints and a big sketchbook. I'm currently working on a National Express East Coast MK4 coach sitting in the sidings at Newcastle. But no matter how much you paid me, I would never be brave enough to show my work!
 

ole man

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I do a bit of painting and drawing. I can do a decent HST but I'm very fastidious and have a tendency to go ballistic and throw everything out if even the slightest bit of detail is wrong. Perfectionism has its prices!

I have a set of water color paints and a big sketchbook. I'm currently working on a National Express East Coast MK4 coach sitting in the sidings at Newcastle. But no matter how much you paid me, I would never be brave enough to show my work!
Do show a drawing HST Power put one up on a new thread and lets discuss
 

RPM

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And we must not forget the conspiracy theory must we?!

In this instance, the theory is that Olympic and Titanic switched identities at Belfast after Olympic was badly damaged in a collision with HMS Hawke in the Solent and sent back for repairs. Apparently she was found to be uneconomic to repair fully, so they switched the IDs and intended to stage a sinking from which everyone was to be rescued - all part of an insurance scam.

Unfortunately they sank in the wrong place and the rescue ship didn't twig in time because they were expecting the distress signals to come from a different direction.

http://www.titanic-titanic.com/titanic_conspiracy_theory.shtml

Seeing the "for" and "against" sides in this theory argue it out can be quite lengthy...

I think we ought to forget it really. The switch conspiracy has been thoroughly and conclusively disproved. It was never more than a money-making exercise by a certain Oxford-based "author" who for some reason keeps getting books published by the usually excellent Ian Allen.
It really doesn't take a lifetime of research to see that there were a myriad of detail differences between Olympic and Titanic and there is absolutely no photographic evidence that demonstrates any anomalies consistent with the switch theory, including pictures of the wreck itself. I'm going to stem this now and not write further or there is a danger of me flooding this thread with pages of evidence that interests no-one, but please believe me, the switch theory is bunkum.
 

ChrisCooper

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Poor Seamanship

On the night she sank the wireless operators recived many warnings of ice in thier area only one of which ever reached Captain Smith. Titanic was racing along at maximum speed (around 23 knots) in an area that the crew knew full well was highly populated with ice. the lookouts in the crows nest were not provided with field glasses in order to spot ice as these had been locked up and the key left in Southampton. Even when the iceberg was sighted the wrong action was taken, the officer of the watch ordered full astern and a hard port turn . Thefull astern order slowed the ship and thus slowed the turn. The correct action wouldhave been to commence a hard port turn at 23 knots in which case the ship would have missed the iceberg completely and un damaged, or to have rammed the berg head on pusing the bow back onto the forcastle collision bulkhead which wouldhave held and not let any water in as the fore collision bulkhead wastheonly one onthe ship that reached the maindeck and was watertight capped.

The idea that ramming the Iceberg head on would have saved them does not take into account the physics of the situation, two large masses coming towards each other and colliding. The amount of energy involved would have had to go somewhere. Ships are not built with crumple zones which would have allowed controlled disipation of the energy, instead damage could have occured right along the length of the ship. Heavy items such as engines and boilers would likely have been dislodged and flung forwards, perhaps breaking through watertight bulkheads. The chances are the ship would have sunk earlier. I don't think anyone has actually tested the theory scientifically.
There is also the human aspect of it. For a start, it would take a lot of courage and faith in the strength of the ship to ram the iceberg head on. Secondly, the ship only just scraped the iceberg. Turning a little earlier or a little faster (perhaps without reversing or stopping the engines) would likely have meant that is missed entirely, which was what Murdoch thought would happen.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Four years ago, we had this discussion (in this thread about Titanic) :-
Titanic conspiracy theories?!

This is ridiculous! :lol:

At risk of veering slightly off topic, there has just been a milestone in another long running shipping story. It involves another ship built at Clydebank, sinking with great loss of life and a government cover-up.

It was the Lancastria, which went down in 1941 with around 4000 people on board (numbers vary). It was rescuing allied troops from France and was ordered by Government to stay and pick up many more than it was designed to carry. It did and was hit, sinking with massive loss of life. The Government put a 'D Notice' on the incident and very little was ever reported, families' requests for an acknowledgement, a remembrance or a commemorative plaque have been persistently refused by the UK Government.

However, in an act of defiance against Whitehall, the Scottish Government HAS agreed to a commemorative event and statue, which was unveiled on the banks of the Clyde just 2 weeks ago, attended by the few remaining survivors and the families of many who died. It was attended by Scotland's First Minister and others, but with no presence from the UK Government.

The 17th June (this week) will be the 75th anniversary of the loss of the Lancastria - with a much bigger loss of life than Titanic and Lusitania together, and still the subject of silence by the UK government. However, that is about to change - a statement is expected in the Commons this Wednesday, at about 12:30pm.
 

kylemore

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Four years ago, we had this discussion (in this thread about Titanic) :-



The 17th June (this week) will be the 75th anniversary of the loss of the Lancastria - with a much bigger loss of life than Titanic and Lusitania together, and still the subject of silence by the UK government. However, that is about to change - a statement is expected in the Commons this Wednesday, at about 12:30pm.

It really is quite amazing - nobody has ever heard of the Lancastria and yet the death toll was as you say far higher than the "Lucy" and the Titanic combined and then some!
Add to this the obvious government reluctance to recognise the event - compared at least to the non-stop commemorations of just about everything else in WW2, and we have a very interesting story
 

Strathclyder

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The same could be said about the Wilhelm Gustloff, which remains the worst maritime disaster in history, and yet almost nobody seems to know about it. Not the Allies' finest hour.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Wilhelm_Gustloff
One estimate suggests that over 9,300 (out of over 10,000 on-board) souls went down with the Wilhelm Gustloff on that freezing January 1945 night in the Baltic. An utterly horrifying loss of life, regardless of which side (Allied or Axis) the ship belonged to...
 
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