'Tis the season to be jolly - Leaf-fall time Folks!!!

[321446]

As the thread on the King X buffer incident had raised the subject and upon looking out the window at a misty moisty morning with trees of many hues and thinning foliage, I wondered if a dedicated thread to that Media Favorite - Trains & Leaves would be in order.

Any fellow drivers who wish to pass on some war stories or if anyone who wants to know what it is like to spend all day trying to start/stop a few hundred ton of metal while sitting in the crumple zone only to be told by the media that it is only leaves and we are all just crap at our jobs.

As a starter for 10, I passed out Mainline in November. I've joined a world of sanders, Rail Head Treatment Trains, auto sandite applicators, bands of gallant orange clad heros out in all weathers hand sanding & cutting back foliage, Low Railhead Adhesion training. I've only had teeny tiny 10 second slides & never run out of air sanding away from stations. I've had it sooooo easy.

As they say on the t'interweb; Discuss....

 

[HH]

I've noticed that there's a pattern on this with Network Rail. Every now and again they'll have an initiative involving a serious cut back of vegetation along the line. This results in a reduction of leaf fall delays for a few years, but then the vegetation has crept back and there'll be a bad year. Then they cut back again...

Quite why no-one can figure out that it might be a good idea to do a little cut back every year is beyond me.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Some routes the foliage is brushing up against the sides of the train.

Not to mention the trees growing out of railway structures such as viaducts cant be doing much for the structures strength and integrity. But the cutting bqck or otherwise removing them isnt seen as the sensible thing to do these days, or some tree-hugger has put a preservation order on.....

 

[Blindtraveler]

Iv always wondered what classes cope best and worst at this time. I know Scotrails 334s like sliding around even if its just water so god knows what leavs are like.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

185's are very light on their feet with pumping 600 horses through just one axle. Slippy season often sees the hydrodynamic brake being isolated. It is not uncommon for a 185 to slip to a stand between micklefield and garforth, or through slaithwaite.

91's are also prone to slipping, again often because of the high power level, 1500hp per axle. 225 sets often depart Durham with sand on as can tell by the distinctive hiss as the train leaves. In severe conditions they have slipped to a stand through nevilles cross and langley mill, just round the corner from Durham station

 

[DarloRich]

Quite why no-one can figure out that it might be a good idea to do a little cut back every year is beyond me.

Put simply: Money

 

[Zoidberg]

Put simply: Money

But surely that is false economy.

Or has someone done the sums and concluded that, overall, it is cheaper to wait until a problem has been caused before acting?

 

[tsr]

Iv always wondered what classes cope best and worst at this time. I know Scotrails 334s like sliding around even if its just water so god knows what leavs are like.

There's loads of variables, but I've never been a fan of how 377s cope (or not) with leaves. The juddering and jolting you can get is most unrefined. I've also had drivers braking carefully, slowing down as applicable, then completely random snatching and sliding resulting in the train coming inches from a serious overrun. It's not always at hotspots for leaf fall and it can cause delays if unusual wheelslip is reported as affecting one service, but none of the rest have problems (something I've directly had to deal with, and very embarrassing it is too!). It's a shame as I don't mind the units overall (and I spend a massive amount of time on them).

As an aside, ice is a different matter - they used to be very poor units, but there are a number of new-ish initiatives for monitoring and control, and things like Ice Mode and other software appear to have improved. They still very occasionally weld themselves to the track, or lose current altogether, but it now has to be a very bad day for that to happen - and of course that's not usually anything to do with slipping and sliding.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Tree growth on the railways has increased massively in the last 30 years.
Short term savings? But in the long term very costly to remove.

No idea what they have already tried on train to reduce the problem. Fitting nylon scrapers to leading wheels track etc, or 2 high pressure air jets, at the front of the train?

 

[Howardh]

Here in Northern land, the leaves are 30 years old, will fall off late (if ever) and if you pass a tree without paying, even though the pavement around it is closed, a squirrel will follow you and mug you.

 

[tsr]

Here in Northern land, the leaves are 30 years old, will fall off late (if ever) and if you pass a tree without paying, even though the pavement around it is closed, a squirrel will follow you and mug you.

You think that's bad. Down South the squirrels drop special slippery leaves on the railway in front of heavily-loaded 12 car services. These squirrels have been specially trained by a mafia employed by the same people who complain on Twitter that TOCs can't do their job properly, who then claim delay repay because of the lost time. When it gets really bad the trees die and fall over, then the squirrels become detached and get jammed in the third rail.

 

[JohnB57]

185's are very light on their feet with pumping 600 horses through just one axle.

One bogie surely?

 

[edwin_m]

Here in Northern land, the leaves are 30 years old, will fall off late (if ever) and if you pass a tree without paying, even though the pavement around it is closed, a squirrel will follow you and mug you.

And they let the franchise on the assumption of no growth, so when growth occurred they had no resources to deal with it.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

One bogie surely?

Err, no.... Only the inner axle is driven, or so i understand anyway.....

Edit!....

Just checked siemens specifications manual. Both axles are driven!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

For me it's quite easy to get moving.

456/455 - Hand notch away get them moving slowly but surely, that is until such time as they retraction the 455 fleet, then we'll let the electronics do the work. Should be interesting to see how a 456 responds to that.

456/455 - Braking is easy, earlier & lighter, which is contrary to company driving policy, but works perfectly well and reduces the risk of spadding or overshooting in the majority of cases.

450/444 - Apply the power gently and let the traction system do its thing, I'll try not to do a 100 wheelspin like I did last year.

450/444 - Braking is earlier & lighter in all but the worst conditions, when it's 50%, then 100% brake to activate the sanders, only had that a couple of times with them so far, pretty good brakes on the Desiros.

 

[HH]

But surely that is false economy.

Or has someone done the sums and concluded that, overall, it is cheaper to wait until a problem has been caused before acting?

Well it seems that Phil Verster, when he was Network Rail's Route Managing Director for London North East, thought otherwise, and decided it was better to spend money cutting back vegetation than paying fines for poor performance. Someone must have agreed, because he's now MD of the NR/Abellio ScotRail Alliance.

 

[Controller1701]

For me it's quite easy to get moving.

456/455 - Hand notch away get them moving slowly but surely, that is until such time as they retraction the 455 fleet, then we'll let the electronics do the work. Should be interesting to see how a 456 responds to that.

Ahhhh the lost art of the hand notch. Waiting for the blank looks from the mere whipper snappers.

Paul

 

[ComUtoR]

Nothing like being brought down to a red. Only for the Signaler to tell you that low adhesion has been reported.

Thank god for the new GSMR update \o/

 

[SPADTrap]

Nothing like being brought down to a red. Only for the Signaler to tell you that low adhesion has been reported.

Thank god for the new GSMR update \o/

Yeah a smart move that update!

 

[infobleep]

Looking at the notices for the Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham line it suddenly dawned on me that the Guilford to Waterloo via Epsom line doesn't have a leaf fall timetable.

Does that mean the the leaf fall is only really bad between Effingham Junction and Surbiton or is it that it isn't great between Guildford and Effingham Junction but beyond to Epsom it's good enough for the Epsom services to make up the lost time from Guildford and Effingham Junction section.

Always surprised that the Portsmouth Direct services don't have a leaf fall timetable. They run through plenty of countryside but obviously with less trees.

 

[eastdyke]

Well it seems that Phil Verster, when he was Network Rail's Route Managing Director for London North East, thought otherwise, and decided it was better to spend money cutting back vegetation than paying fines for poor performance. Someone must have agreed, because he's now MD of the NR/Abellio ScotRail Alliance.

Phil Verster - so much respect.

I really hope that he is fully appreciated in his new role.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Looking at the notices for the Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham line it suddenly dawned on me that the Guilford to Waterloo via Epsom line doesn't have a leaf fall timetable.

Does that mean the the leaf fall is only really bad between Effingham Junction and Surbiton or is it that it isn't great between Guildford and Effingham Junction but beyond to Epsom it's good enough for the Epsom services to make up the lost time from Guildford and Effingham Junction section.

Always surprised that the Portsmouth Direct services don't have a leaf fall timetable. They run through plenty of countryside but obviously with less trees.

The Portsmouth line does, but it only tends to involve the first few early morning trains, whereas the Cobham line does it all day, because the line is quite steep in places compared to the Epsom line which is quite gentle apart from the climbs out of Epsom and Ashtead.

 

[WCMLaddict]

Well it seems that Phil Verster, when he was Network Rail's Route Managing Director for London North East, thought otherwise, and decided it was better to spend money cutting back vegetation than paying fines for poor performance. Someone must have agreed, because he's now MD of the NR/Abellio ScotRail Alliance.

Since when is it about doing your job well rather than who you know?

Last year around Manchester the leaf fall wasn't bad at all. Network Rail did great work with cutting back and treatment trains. This year it looks like few places have been forgotten about.

 

[infobleep]

The Portsmouth line does, but it only tends to involve the first few early morning trains, whereas the Cobham line does it all day, because the line is quite steep in places compared to the Epsom line which is quite gentle apart from the climbs out of Epsom and Ashtead.

Thanks for that. That explains a lot. I hadn't realised the Cobham section was so steep. I can see why that would be a problem.

Do the early morning Portsmouth trains had a leaf fall timetable? I know some Thameslink ones do or at least use to, not checked lately.

 

[DarloRich]

But surely that is false economy.

Or has someone done the sums and concluded that, overall, it is cheaper to wait until a problem has been caused before acting?

perhaps but the key issue is securing resources for both the campaign AND the on going year on year maintenance work. That and not having the resources pulled off to deal with more immediately important maintenance issues.

both can be easier said than done!

(don't start on property owners complaining about tree felling..........)

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Thanks for that. That explains a lot. I hadn't realised the Cobham section was so steep. I can see why that would be a problem.

Do the early morning Portsmouth trains had a leaf fall timetable? I know some Thameslink ones do or at least use to, not checked lately.

The steepest bits are Guildford to Boxgrove Road, Clandon to Ripley Road, Cobham to Polyapes/Cooks Crossing & Claygate to footbridge off of Clairemont Road & Withybed (Cobham M25 services) to Horsley.

The art of hand notching will usually get the most stubborn of units moving on there, except in the most extreme of cases.

 

[DarloRich]

The art of hand notching will usually get the most stubborn of units moving on there, except in the most extreme of cases.

hand notching fnar fnar

(PS what is hand nothcing?)

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You can use it in times of low adhesion on both camshaft & chopper controlled traction units such as 455/456.

What you have to bear in mind is that camshafts rotate and they take out the resistances, so you can with patience take those resistances out one at a time, each power notch (bar notch 1&4) has 6, so you apply power in notch 1 to get moving, then once you have movement albeit very slowly, you flick the power handle to 2 & quickly back to 1, so the train's motors are now in series and you do that a maximum of 6 times.

If the unit(s) overload, then start again notch 1 & then take the notches out of series until the unit is up to around about 20-30 mph, once there you repeat the process with notch 3, so up to notch 3 (parallel) & quickly back to 1 and repeat up to 6 times and if successful you should find the train is now up to around about the 40+ mph mark, you can let it keep going to 50 or more and then finally take notch 4 (Weak Field) up to linespeed.

On more modern stock the traction systems should do this on their own and generally do, except 458s which are to say the least pretty putrid when it comes to getting away in times of low adhesion.:roll:

 

[Ianigsy]

The line which needs a leaf fall timetable but doesn't have one is Bradford-Ilkley. The stretch through Baildon and Esholt climbs through woodland and when I was a regular Leeds-Menston commuter it was quite common at this time of year for the 1715/6 Leeds-Ilkley to be held at Guiseley waiting for the Bradford train to clear the section, which also delayed my 1732. As I was reliant on the bus connection to Otley to get home, it wasn't unknown to miss this connection and be delayed half an hour three nights a week.

 

[Class 466]

The Medway Valley Line in Kent is a rather troublesome route in Leaf Fall season with many of the first services along it losing time on the quieter, southern end of the route, last year I was on a 3 car 375 that struggled to get any grip along a fairly large chunk of this section. (although 375s seem to slip in any weather conditions at any time of year!).