TIR for using the ticket my partner purchased me!

[AdamWW]

Well, quite. My experience of the railway states rather the opposite at times!

From my experience I would place far more faith in what I'm told on this forum than any number of rail employees, sad as that is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2023 ==

Ticketing rules are complicated and change in contradictory ways from time-to-time and this means not only passengers but staff can get themselves confused.

Hard to see though what would cause several staff members to apparently think that buying an e-ticket on someone's behalf and then emailing it to them is an offence though. I wonder how they think corporate travel works...
(Unless there was some confusion and they were referring to using an e-ticket that someone else was also travelling on).

 

[WedjCr]

Yeah I have found a number (and email)... I will simply call them tomorrow, hopefully for some resolution but ultimately to inform them I'll be leaving the country. I will report back what I find if anyone is interested?

 

[AdamWW]

Yeah I have found a number (and email)... I will simply call them tomorrow, hopefully for some resolution but ultimately to inform them I'll be leaving the country. I will report back what I find if anyone is interested?

Yes please do. If Northern insist that nobody is allowed to travel on a ticket they haven't personally purchased it would be good to know.

 

[NorthWestRover]

If Northern insist that nobody is allowed to travel on a ticket they haven't personally purchased it would be good to know.

...and wreck much of my travel planning with a friend from Bolton (I travel from Wigan). Because I know ticketing better than they do, I normally buy the tickets, then send her the e-ticket. We end up on the same train, but some of the journey is separate.

I've also done it for 4 people travelling together but reaching the station from different directions and potentially being delayed en route, so needing their ticket.

It happens all the time, this is madness. If you follow strict logic on this, I couldn't even buy two tickets and then travel (typo edited) the whole journey with them without Northern saying their ticket isn't valid because I bought it!

 

[skyhigh]

• I left Liverpool without a hitch... The QR worked a treat, as one would imagine
  
  
• However, upon arrival in Warrington the revenues chap(?) asked to see a ticket (it failed on the barrier FYI) and I showed him the email and screenshot etc.

My guess would be that somehow the ticket got finalised/killed by mistake at Liverpool or on the train which then would stop it working the exit barrier. When exactly was it scanned across the whole journey and by who?

If you want to DM me a photo of the Aztec code I can try and get the scan history tomorrow as from what you've said you've done nothing wrong.

 

[SuspectUsual]

If Northern are saying it’s not allowed to buy a ticket for the use by another person, perhaps they’d like to explain how to use a Two Together railcard

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Northern are saying it’s not allowed to buy a ticket for the use by another person, perhaps they’d like to explain how to use a Two Together railcard

I'm fairly confident it's an out of date condition relating to the old m-tickets.

 

[MikeWh]

If Northern are saying it’s not allowed to buy a ticket for the use by another person, perhaps they’d like to explain how to use a Two Together railcard

Also, how is a five year old supposed to get a ticket?

 

[Marton]

Also, how is a five year old supposed to get a ticket?

Also a Northern Duo or when friends and family who want to sit together in reserved seats.

 

[Fastlane256]

If Northern are saying it’s not allowed to buy a ticket for the use by another person, perhaps they’d like to explain how to use a Two Together railcard

And what about groupsave?

 

[fandroid]

I think the only thing that remains is what should I do about my work travel? I am still very worried correspondence on a potential criminal matter would be delayed. I could ask my partner to open my mail (illegal In the UK) and then relay the contents to me.

I very much doubt that opening your letters is illegal if you give specific consent. Give consent in writing if it worries you. Also, I very much think that there's no practical reason why you shouldn't be able to "conduct your defence" while out of the country, unless you will be out of contact entirely. Again, if it worries you, give your partner written authorisation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2023 ==

I suspect that the word "fraudulent" is supposed to be read in front of "transfer to another person" in those Northern conditions of sale. What you did was in no way fraudulent.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2023 ==

...and wreck much of my travel planning with a friend from Bolton (I travel from Wigan). Because I know ticketing better than they do, I normally buy the tickets, then send her the e-ticket. We end up on the same train, but some of the journey is separate.

I've also done it for 4 people travelling together but reaching the station from different directions and potentially being delayed en route, so needing their ticket.

It happens all the time, this is madness. If you follow strict logic on this, I couldn't even buy two tickets and then travel (typo edited) the whole journey with them without Northern saying their ticket isn't valid because I bought it!

Just don't use the Northern ticketing site! No one else has those Conditions, as far as I know

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I very much doubt that opening your letters is illegal if you give specific consent. Give consent in writing if it worries you. Also, I very much think that there's no practical reason why you shouldn't be able to "conduct your defence" while out of the country, unless you will be out of contact entirely. Again, if it worries you, give your partner written authorisation.

Most online articles I can find in the question of opening another person's post relate to the Postal Service Act 2000, the key line here seems to be:

A person commits an offence if, intending to act to a person's detriment and without reasonable excuse, he opens a postal packet which he knows or reasonably suspects has been incorrectly delivered to him.

In this case, there would be no detriment and they would have reasonable excuse to open the mail, especially since they'd have permission for it
(Might be worth noting I'm not a legal professional I just google things)

 

[gray1404]

My advice to the original poster would be to trust the expert advice given on this forum over the incorrect advice they have been given by various members of Northern staff.

It is absolutely permitted for one to purchase an e-ticket for another person and, from the information given, it sounds like the staff member was making it up. Therefore should northern right to you you should post a copy of the letter you receive here with personal details retracted and we can assist you in drafting a reply.

You do not appear to have done anything wrong and I would certainly suggest not paying a single penny to Northern under these circumstances and be prepared to fight it.

 

[AlbertBeale]

My advice to the original poster would be to trust the expert advice given on this forum over the incorrect advice they have been given by various members of Northern staff.

It is absolutely permitted for one to purchase an e-ticket for another person and, from the information given, it sounds like the staff member was making it up. Therefore should northern right to you you should post a copy of the letter you receive here with personal details retracted and we can assist you in drafting a reply.

You do not appear to have done anything wrong and I would certainly suggest not paying a single penny to Northern under these circumstances and be prepared to fight it.

Indeed - and if a new ticket was bought for the return leg, because of having been told that their original return was invalid, then they're eligible to get that unnecessary extra ticket refunded too.

 

[Vespa]

It does beg the question regarding transfer of tickets to another person.

Which rules supersedes the other ?
NRCoT or Northen own terms & conditions because they seem to be in conflict with each other.

It's not the first time Warrington revenue protection got it wrong, I recall a thread where somebody was incorrectly issued a penalty fare which was withdrawn in an appeal.

 

[AdamWW]

My advice to the original poster would be to trust the expert advice given on this forum over the incorrect advice they have been given by various members of Northern staff.

Indeed. Although it may sound like bad advice to trust people on a web forum over staff, it's an unfortunate fact that misconceptions among railway staff are common and I've had the experience of - like the OP - asking several staff members during a journey a question about ticket validity and being given the same wrong answer.

This forum includes many knowledgable people both in and outside the industry and while of course not everybody will be correct, my experience is that you can trust the consensus opinion here far more than the results of questioning random rail staff.

You do not appear to have done anything wrong and I would certainly suggest not paying a single penny to Northern under these circumstances and be prepared to fight it.

I imagine by far the most likely outcome is that someone reads the ticket irregularity report, realises straight away that there was in fact no irregularity, and the matter is quietly dropped there.

 

[Snow1964]

Anyway, I thank everyone here for this. Some good advice but ultimately I have to side with the 3 employees of Northern (it's probably safer to assume they might know more).

I think there is a general unofficial rule that you don't start an argument with a colleague in front of a customer, even if you know they have made a blatant error.

I suspect unless one was senior, and could in customers eyes remedy the situation there and then, won't happen.

So just because 3 went along with it, doesn't mean it was right.

Hopefully someone will now read the ticket irregularities report, realise you had valid E-ticket, and will drop it.

 

[AlterEgo]

It does beg the question regarding transfer of tickets to another person.

Which rules supersedes the other ?
NRCoT or Northen own terms & conditions because they seem to be in conflict with each other.

The answer is already in the thread. From the NRCOT:

Please note that neither a Train Company’s staff, nor a Licensed Retailer’s staff has the authority to waive or change the Conditions unless they are specifically allowed to do so within the Conditions.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It's not the first time Warrington revenue protection got it wrong, I recall a thread where somebody was incorrectly issued a penalty fare which was withdrawn in an appeal.

This was the previous thread to which you refer...

Unfairly given penalty fare by Northern for off-peak ticket?

Today I was travelling from Warrington West to Warrington Central station on the 16:28 train. I purchased an off-peak day return ticket on the Trainline app for £2.70 a few minutes before the train arrived. When I got to Warrington Central I was told that the ticket was invalid as it was now...

www.railforums.co.uk

I imagine by far the most likely outcome is that someone reads the ticket irregularity report, realises straight away that there was in fact no irregularity, and the matter is quietly dropped there.

Just that? Are we starting to see the beginning of something of a trend with regard to Northern personnel (or their contractors) repeatedly incorrectly issuing PFs and/or TIRs at Warrington Central?

Nice little earner for Northern if folk don't subsequently challenge same and just stump up the £££ to make the matter go away.

 

[Wolfie]

This was the previous thread to which you refer...

Unfairly given penalty fare by Northern for off-peak ticket?

Today I was travelling from Warrington West to Warrington Central station on the 16:28 train. I purchased an off-peak day return ticket on the Trainline app for £2.70 a few minutes before the train arrived. When I got to Warrington Central I was told that the ticket was invalid as it was now...

www.railforums.co.uk

Just that? Are we starting to see the beginning of something of a trend with regard to Northern personnel (or their contractors) repeatedly incorrectly issuing PFs and/or TIRs at Warrington Central?

Nice little earner for Northern if folk don't subsequently challenge same and just stump up the £££ to make the matter go away.

Time to make Northern's management's lives hell. Letters to MPs, the media, FOI requests etc. Make them get off their fat useless asses and do their job properly.

 

[island]

If everything is as described by the OP it seems like a serious mistake by the staff member. I would hope the penalty fare will be promptly cancelled and an apology issued.

 

[pdq]

Is it possible that there has been a misunderstanding between buying a ticket purely for someone else, which is permitted; and buying a ticket, using it and then passing it on, which clearly is not? I wonder if there was some incorrect implication that the ticket was used before the OP

 

[SuspectUsual]

For me, the other outstanding question is "what did the Northern bod see on his fancy new machine that led to him making his mistake?"

Is it as simple as the new devices showing the name of the purchaser (where known) and him thinking "hmmmmm, that's a female name and this here's a bloke"?

 

[DaveB10780]

Is it possible that there has been a misunderstanding between buying a ticket purely for someone else, which is permitted; and buying a ticket, using it and then passing it on, which clearly is not? I wonder if there was some incorrect implication that the ticket was used before the OP

Seems a clear case of assumed Guilty until proved Innocent without checking the facts properly to me.

 

[AdamWW]

Seems a clear case of assumed Guilty until proved Innocent without checking the facts properly to me.

I'm not familiar with these things but a ticket irregularity report sounds to me like a way of flagging something that is potentially wrong so that the facts can indeed be checked.

If everything is as described by the OP it seems like a serious mistake by the staff member. I would hope the penalty fare will be promptly cancelled and an apology issued.

According to the OP a ticket irregularity report was issued, not a penalty fare.

 

[Titfield]

I think there is a general unofficial rule that you don't start an argument with a colleague in front of a customer, even if you know they have made a blatant error.

Yes generally speaking you do not contradict a colleague in front of a customer because this can give rise to a complaint from the colleague that they have been undermined or belittled.

Of course there are ways of resolving the issue immediately without appearing to "undermine the colleague" but this requires a skill that many do not seem to possess and sadly many employees would rather allow a customer to be given wrong information rather than sour a relationship with a colleague.

 

[gray1404]

It was not surprise me if northern simply sent out a penalty fake letter.

 

[Sultan]

Are you within your rights to refuse a penalty fare or transport irregularity if you know you are definitely in the right? Such as having a valid ticket but purchased by someone else's card? And if they lend me £20 instead, would Northern take the same view?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you within your rights to refuse a penalty fare or transport irregularity if you know you are definitely in the right? Such as having a valid ticket but purchased by someone else's card? And if they lend me £20 instead, would Northern take the same view?

You can refuse a PF, but if you do a TIR will be submitted instead. A PF is better, it's easier to appeal as there is a formal process. If this had been a PF making it go away at appeal would have been very easy.

 

[island]

You can refuse a PF, but if you do a TIR will be submitted instead. A PF is better, it's easier to appeal as there is a formal process. If this had been a PF making it go away at appeal would have been very easy.

In theory you can decline to provide your name and address for a TIR on the grounds that the ticket inspector does not have reasonable grounds to believe you have committed an offence.

In practice, doing so runs the risk of police being asked to intervene, and failure to give details to police is very likely to result in arrest.