Timetabled journeys not fully running

[alex397]

I won’t name the route or operator involved, but I’m curious about the legalities of a bus operator regularly not operating part of a registered route.

The route is a Mon-Sat council contracted route, and the part of the journey in question is an afternoon schoolday extension. This journey is seen on the bustimes.org timetable and on the timetable shown on the operator’s website. As far as I know, it has not operated this part of the route for well over a year (according to both tracking and my own physical observations) but the registration has not been changed. I presume the council must be aware of it though, and maybe the council even asked them to stop operating this part due to lack of use.

I just wonder if this is actually allowed and the legalities of it.

This also reminds me of similar incidents of some journeys from various operators not running the full route if it’s maybe the last run of they day they have no passengers - not just missing the last stop, but quite large sections, instead seemingly just heading back to the depot. Obviously some timetables have notes such as ‘serves this section on request only’ or ‘set down only’ for these last runs of the day, but with some of the examples I’ve seen, this isn’t evident.

 

[peterblue]

I won’t name the route or operator involved, but I’m curious about the legalities of a bus operator regularly not operating part of a registered route.

The route is a Mon-Sat council contracted route, and the part of the journey in question is an afternoon schoolday extension. This journey is seen on the bustimes.org timetable and on the timetable shown on the operator’s website. As far as I know, it has not operated this part of the route for well over a year (according to both tracking and my own physical observations) but the registration has not been changed. I presume the council must be aware of it though, and maybe the council even asked them to stop operating this part due to lack of use.

I just wonder if this is actually allowed and the legalities of it.

This also reminds me of similar incidents of some journeys from various operators not running the full route if it’s maybe the last run of they day they have no passengers - not just missing the last stop, but quite large sections, instead seemingly just heading back to the depot. Obviously some timetables have notes such as ‘serves this section on request only’ or ‘set down only’ for these last runs of the day, but with some of the examples I’ve seen, this isn’t evident.

I think you ought to name and shame the operator!

I've seen it happen on a very small scale before (e.g. a contracted independent route near me sometimes omits going into the Tesco supermarket stop) but not at the level you're describing.

Some routes have a 'on request' section, but if this does not exist then the route must be run. It's a bit 'stricter' for council operated and other contract (school) services, and most operators prioritise running these over commercial services to avoid breaches of contract. Contact the council as a first step if you have concerns - they may not even be aware this is happening.

 

[JKP]

I think you ought to name and shame the operator!

I've seen it happen on a very small scale before (e.g. a contracted independent route near me sometimes omits going into the Tesco supermarket stop) but not at the level you're describing.

Some routes have a 'on request' section, but if this does not exist then the route must be run. It's a bit 'stricter' for council operated and other contract (school) services, and most operators prioritise running these over commercial services to avoid breaches of contract. Contact the council as a first step if you have concerns - they may not even be aware this is happening.

Agreed. Is there a morning schoolday only extension and does this run? My suspicion is that there are no longer any school pupils to be carried and the operator has not changed the registration nor been pushed by the Council to do so. Perhaps there was a possibility of new school enrolments who would require the bus who did not materialise. There is also the possibility that pupils continue to be entitled to the transport and do not travel, the drivers know this and do not complete the route.

 

[PeterC]

We have an "open door" schooldays only route taking pupils home to multiple villages (call them A and B). The service requires 2 vehicles so one runs direct to A and the other to B.

In Bucks Red Rose drivers had a reputation for being cavalier with the routings on the old Chesham area contract. Catching an outbound journey at an intermediate stop was a matter of pot luck.

 

[Trainguy34]

I know near me Stagecoach are meant to stop in to serve a school and avoid students having to cross two busy roads (No nearby crossings!), but they rarely stop in to serve the school, so often that, combined with the risk of overcrowding and being turned away as a result, they always all just run down the road and cross when they see the bus coming!

 

[BusesOfTheNW]

There was an operator in Manchester that often missed parts of the route / terminated early. Sometimes it was due to being late but often just down to driver laziness, Their routes were all TFGM tenders but afaik no meaningful action was ever taken by TFGM / traffic commissioner despite them both being aware. So whilst it certainly isn't allowed unfortunately it's rare anything is actually done about it.

 

[duncombec]

There could be any number of reasons, from a data or processing error to agreement with the contracting authority. The only real way you'd find out whether it is intentional or not, agreed on or not, would be to discuss it with either the operator or the contracting authority. Anything else is "what iffery", and "naming and shaming" the operator, as one respondent suggested, may well be unhelpful if it transpires the issue is not of the operator's making.

Of course, all services should operate according to the registered timetable, allowing for any "if already on board by this point" or "set down only" designations. That some don't is very much a case of "you only have to be caught once". An operator not a million miles away from here was, I believe, politely reminded that the last journey of the day is NOT set-down only, and if they wanted to be receive the relevant funds for the portion of route, it perhaps ought to start tracking there. It suddenly started doing to a lot more frequently than it had been (although not without imperfections)...

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Bucks Red Rose drivers had a reputation for being cavalier with the routings on the old Chesham area contract. Catching an outbound journey at an intermediate stop was a matter of pot luck.

The company has a long-held and deserved reputation for that in their wider operations. When they operated local services in Milton Keynes they were as bad, with the wandery route 3E to Westcroft that was formerly my local evening/Sunday route often missing out estates and going up the main road instead so they had longer at the end to have a break. They just don't seem to think the rules apply to them most of the time. Z&S is better than "Red *" but not wildly better. It wasn't just when running late.

Tracking makes this a bit harder to get away with these days though.

With regard to the wider point I recall a situation in north Yorkshire where the route wasn't correctly registered in line with the published/operated timetable. It was a fairly small route tendered to a taxi company rather than bus company and operated using a minibus, so I suspect they probably just didn't properly understand the registration process - not that that is any excuse! I've seen this a few times where bustimes.org is different from what actually operates/is on the operator's website (the former as far as I'm aware just shows what was registered).

 

[PeterC]

With regard to the wider point I recall a situation in north Yorkshire where the route wasn't correctly registered in line with the published/operated timetable. It was a fairly small route tendered to a taxi company rather than bus company and operated using a minibus, so I suspect they probably just didn't properly understand the registration process - not that that is any excuse! I've seen this a few times where bustimes.org is different from what actually operates/is on the operator's website (the former as far as I'm aware just shows what was registered).

Not just small companies. Carousel has an incorrect section of route uploaded to BODS for routes 78 and 79. The PDF route map on their website shows the correct route but select "all stops" on the timetable and you get the wrong ones. I have checked with the local authority and the roads actually being driven are the ones contracted

 

[alex397]

I think you ought to name and shame the operator!

That’s not a good idea and I don’t think it would be fair. I might be mistaken, or there might be some sort of unintentional admin error.

I've seen it happen on a very small scale before (e.g. a contracted independent route near me sometimes omits going into the Tesco supermarket stop) but not at the level you're describing.

I don’t think I’d call that small scale, as they really should be serving the entire route unless there is a good reason not to do so. They can’t be sure that no one is waiting for it, especially if it’s a non-regular user.

Agreed. Is there a morning schoolday only extension and does this run? My suspicion is that there are no longer any school pupils to be carried and the operator has not changed the registration nor been pushed by the Council to do so. Perhaps there was a possibility of new school enrolments who would require the bus who did not materialise. There is also the possibility that pupils continue to be entitled to the transport and do not travel, the drivers know this and do not complete the route.

There’s no equivalent morning journey serving the school, though that’s not necessarily a reason it wouldn’t run. There are a few examples in my area where the morning route is different to the afternoon route, and sometimes pupils have a direct journey one way, but have to interchange in the opposite direction.

 

[markymark2000]

Tracking makes this a bit harder to get away with these days though.

You'd think, but some operators still do it as some transport authorities don't care/don't want to know/put their fingers in their ears, and the supposed regulatory body cares not for regulating. Combine the two, not a lot changes except thankfully the public can now see what is going on more than they could before.

With regard to the wider point I recall a situation in north Yorkshire where the route wasn't correctly registered in line with the published/operated timetable. It was a fairly small route tendered to a taxi company rather than bus company and operated using a minibus, so I suspect they probably just didn't properly understand the registration process - not that that is any excuse! I've seen this a few times where bustimes.org is different from what actually operates/is on the operator's website (the former as far as I'm aware just shows what was registered).

Bustimes shows a mix of data and while all data, whether from Traveline or data submitted via BODS, it is meant to largely match what is registered.
There are a few things which spring to mind though when this isn't the case. One which springs to mind is Ticketer doesn't publish pick up/set down only restrictions to BODS and so operators can''t set these up. Operators either provide the times and details but then it shows as pick up/drop off, or they remove any on request sections. Neither one is ideal but it's the system that they are dealing with. There's also issues for both Traveline and BODS whereby agents (on behalf of transport authorities or operators) simply being incapable of basic data entry and so the data doesn't match anything like what is registered. Wiltshire Council is bad for this with Traveline and Transmach is awful for this with BODS data.

I will say though, if you notice any differences between the advertised and operating timetables, it is worth flagging with Bustimes as they can and do look into the issue and where they can, they will change data sources to fix an issue or try to make the relevant people aware when there are issues. Or they will try to explain what the issue is (if it's something that is known as an issue).

Not just small companies. Carousel has an incorrect section of route uploaded to BODS for routes 78 and 79. The PDF route map on their website shows the correct route but select "all stops" on the timetable and you get the wrong ones. I have checked with the local authority and the roads actually being driven are the ones contracted

Oxford Bus Group as a whole (which includes Carousel) is awful with their BODS data. There's been issues that have been being reported to them regularly for well over a year, and they rarely ever fix anything.