Timetable/stock idea for TPE North

[Philip]

What do people think of this idea to try to make the North TPE operations more reliable and improve line capacity across Standedge, without impacting too much on the capacity available on the trains?

1 x tph Liverpool to Newcastle formed of 10 coaches (2 x 802), calling only at Man Vic, Leeds and York and then the normal stopping pattern beyond York.

1 x tph Man Vic to York formed of 5 coaches (1 x 802), stopping at Huddersfield and Leeds.

1 x tph Manchester Airport to Hull (via Guide Bridge) formed of 6 coaches (2 x 185s) and calling at Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, etc to Hull.

1 x tph Huddersfield to Hull formed of 6 coaches (2 x 185s) calling at the same stations as the Huddersfield to Leeds shuttle currently does, then selected stations to Hull.

1 x tph Liverpool to Huddersfield via Chat Moss (Northern) using double 195s to make 4-5-6 coach formations, calling at Lea Green, St Helens, Newton and then all stations Man Vic to Huddersfield.

1 x tph to each of Saltburn and Scarborough, using 185s.

A maximum of 4 tph across the Standedge line along with a reduction in services and thus traincrew being less stretched should improve timetable reliability markedly. Also removes the remaining Ordsall Chord service, which should improve reliability through Castlefield.
I know that the big omission in the first one is Huddersfield, but I don't think the platforms there are long enough to accommodate 10 coaches. Would a fast half hourly frequency each with 5-6 coaches between Manchester and Huddersfield suffice, bearing in mind the Northern stopper is also there and that many Manchester to Leeds passengers would be carried by the double Azuma sets (along with the option of going the Calder Valley route)?

If all of the South TPE diagrams were covered by the LHCS sets, it should leave enough 185s to cover the services above and also the shuttles between York and Saltburn/Scarborough.

 

[JonathanH]

1 x tph Liverpool to Newcastle formed of 10 coaches (2 x 802), calling only at Man Vic, Leeds and York and then the normal stopping pattern beyond York.

I don't see how you could encourage people travelling between Leeds and Manchester to take this service rather than the other ones with shorter trains. Is there really a point in running a 10-car train that misses out key stations?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see how you could encourage people travelling between Leeds and Manchester to take this service rather than the other ones with shorter trains. Is there really a point in running a 10-car train that misses out key stations?

I think the point is more that those are the only stations with 10-car platforms, no?

Obviously those using those stations would choose the fastest "true InterCity" service if it saved them time, and you could price them onto it too.

 

[Philip]

I don't see how you could encourage people travelling between Leeds and Manchester to take this service rather than the other ones with shorter trains. Is there really a point in running a 10-car train that misses out key stations?

If it was possible for this one to stop at Huddersfield then it would do, it's just the platform length which restricts it.

Manchester to Leeds passengers could be encouraged to use the non-stop service with cheaper advance tickets available on this one compared with the others.

 

[JonathanH]

Manchester to Leeds passengers could be encouraged to use the non-stop service with cheaper advance tickets available on this one compared with the others.

Or more expensive ones on the other services, but you have to then take account of the ability to split tickets and overall revenue.

I think the point is more that those are the only stations with 10-car platforms, no?

Yes, I appreciate the reasoning.

Obviously those using those stations would choose the fastest "true InterCity" service if it saved them time, and you could price them onto it too.

It wouldn't be more than a few minutes quicker. The flows between Leeds and Huddersfield make up a big part of the capacity issue however, which running a 10-car without intermediate stops doesn't address.

 

[tbtc]

(Apologies if I’ve misunderstood aspects of the OP, happy to be corrected etc)

Manchester to Leeds goes down to three times per hour, one from Piccadilly and two from Victoria?

Places like Garforth are left with just the local Northern services, when it comes to journeys to York etc?

Places like Middlesbrough lose the only proper long distance services they have?

Nothing from north of Leeds (York etc) to Manchester Airport

There’s maybe some justification for some of these changes - I’ve argued once or twice that not everywhere needs direct trains to the airport - I think that there’s logic behind “fewer but longer” trains each hour (see also XC) - it just feels like this would be a lot of pain for not many benefits - e.g. half hour gaps in the Manchester to Leeds services won’t go down well - and you are throwing a lot of additional resources at Hull whilst the Scarborough/Saltburn lines see only negatives

1 x tph Liverpool to Newcastle formed of 10 coaches (2 x 802), calling only at Man Vic, Leeds and York and then the normal stopping pattern beyond York

I think that this one will get the most negative comments, especially as I don’t think there’s going to be much time saving from going through Huddersfield non stop

In fact, whilst I appreciate your point about not knowing platform capacities, the idea of omitting the most important intermediate station generally goes down badly on here

Rightly or wrongly, people expect a regular/ consistent service on the Manchester to Leeds and Leeds to York route, it’s essentially “turn up and go” for the majority of passengers (less so for passengers needing Middlesbrough/ Malton/ Mirfield, but certainly between the big cities/ Huddersfield)

trying to adopt the culture of getting people to wait for the one “long” train per hour might take a lot of getting used to, especially as it won’t offer any significant time saving as there’s no/ little scope to overtake stoppers en route

On many lines, the TOC has tried to smooth journey times (and evenly distributed intermediate stops) to spread passengers more evenly - the Avanti plan to put all of the stops between London and Coventry on one service per hour feels like going against the tide of other TOCs generally trying to keep overall journey times consistent between services

1 x tph Manchester Airport to Hull (via Guide Bridge) formed of 6 coaches (2 x 185s)

1 x tph Huddersfield to Hull formed of 6 coaches (2 x 185s)

So Hull gets twelve TPE coaches per hour from Leeds; is this on top of the hourly Northern DMU service from Halifax?

That’s some transformation since it had one Leeds service per hour with a single 185 , downgraded at times to a single 170

removes the remaining Ordsall Chord service, which should improve reliability through Castlefield

…by threading the Hull DMUs from the Guide Bridge line to the Airport Line (I think that one reason for moving the Scarborough - Liverpool service away from Castlefield was that it freed up three paths an hour into Piccadilly, since every line had to stop whilst the Scarborough service went from the north east side of the throat to the platform on the south west corner - you’re wanting to repeat this kind of hazard though

1 x tph Man Vic to York formed of 5 coaches (1 x 802), stopping at Huddersfield and Leeds

1 x tph to each of Saltburn and Scarborough, using 185s

it should leave enough 185s to cover the services above and also the shuttles between York and Saltburn/Scarborough

I wasn’t initially sure where the Saltburn/ Scarborough services were coming *from*, but you later go on to suggest that they only start at York (i.e. lose all through services to Leeds etc)?

Can’t see that being popular, especially in the summer holidays!

But these don’t go beyond York, whilst there will be a separate service from York to Manchester?

@Bletchleyite “Obviously those using those stations would choose the fastest "true InterCity" service if it saved them time, and you could price them onto it too”

… although I doubt it’s going to offer significant time saving due to the loss line speed through Huddersfield and the fact it just catches up with any slow train ahead and would be unable to overtake

(Plus obviously BR didn’t think the TransPennine line worthy of being “InterCity”, unlike more important links between cities like, erm, Gatwick Airport to London Victoria)

 

[Philip]

Or more expensive ones on the other services, but you have to then take account of the ability to split tickets and overall revenue.


Yes, I appreciate the reasoning.


It wouldn't be more than a few minutes quicker. The flows between Leeds and Huddersfield make up a big part of the capacity issue however, which running a 10-car without intermediate stops doesn't address.

On the latter point, the extra coaches on the Huddersfield to Leeds/Hull services should help to rectify the problem of lost capacity from the non-stop service. If Northern get 158s or 175s from TfW, they could further strengthen capacity along here by running their own Leeds to Huddersfield shuttle using double 195 sets, released from the North West routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2022 ==

(Apologies if I’ve misunderstood aspects of the OP, happy to be corrected etc)

Manchester to Leeds goes down to three times per hour, one from Piccadilly and two from Victoria?

Places like Garforth are left with just the local Northern services, when it comes to journeys to York etc?

Places like Middlesbrough lose the only proper long distance services they have?

Nothing from north of Leeds (York etc) to Manchester Airport

There’s maybe some justification for some of these changes - I’ve argued once or twice that not everywhere needs direct trains to the airport - I think that there’s logic behind “fewer but longer” trains each hour (see also XC) - it just feels like this would be a lot of pain for not many benefits - e.g. half hour gaps in the Manchester to Leeds services won’t go down well - and you are throwing a lot of additional resources at Hull whilst the Scarborough/Saltburn lines see only negatives



I think that this one will get the most negative comments, especially as I don’t think there’s going to be much time saving from going through Huddersfield non stop

In fact, whilst I appreciate your point about not knowing platform capacities, the idea of omitting the most important intermediate station generally goes down badly on here

Rightly or wrongly, people expect a regular/ consistent service on the Manchester to Leeds and Leeds to York route, it’s essentially “turn up and go” for the majority of passengers (less so for passengers needing Middlesbrough/ Malton/ Mirfield, but certainly between the big cities/ Huddersfield)

trying to adopt the culture of getting people to wait for the one “long” train per hour might take a lot of getting used to, especially as it won’t offer any significant time saving as there’s no/ little scope to overtake stoppers en route

On many lines, the TOC has tried to smooth journey times (and evenly distributed intermediate stops) to spread passengers more evenly - the Avanti plan to put all of the stops between London and Coventry on one service per hour feels like going against the tide of other TOCs generally trying to keep overall journey times consistent between services




So Hull gets twelve TPE coaches per hour from Leeds; is this on top of the hourly Northern DMU service from Halifax?

That’s some transformation since it had one Leeds service per hour with a single 185 , downgraded at times to a single 170


…by threading the Hull DMUs from the Guide Bridge line to the Airport Line (I think that one reason for moving the Scarborough - Liverpool service away from Castlefield was that it freed up three paths an hour into Piccadilly, since every line had to stop whilst the Scarborough service went from the north east side of the throat to the platform on the south west corner - you’re wanting to repeat this kind of hazard though






I wasn’t initially sure where the Saltburn/ Scarborough services were coming *from*, but you later go on to suggest that they only start at York (i.e. lose all through services to Leeds etc)?

Can’t see that being popular, especially in the summer holidays!

But these don’t go beyond York, whilst there will be a separate service from York to Manchester?




… although I doubt it’s going to offer significant time saving due to the loss line speed through Huddersfield and the fact it just catches up with any slow train ahead and would be unable to overtake

(Plus obviously BR didn’t think the TransPennine line worthy of being “InterCity”, unlike more important links between cities like, erm, Gatwick Airport to London Victoria)

I forgot about the stations between Leeds and York; these could be served by Man Vic to York shuttle.

Scarborough-York as a shuttle has long been considered an option and I don't think it will impact things too negatively if there is a good connection available at York. Perhaps the Saltburn to York could extend to Leeds if there is enough platform capacity there? It isn't essential to have direct Middlesbrough to Manchester trains; probably about as important as the need for direct Sunderland to Manchester services! However, perhaps the Huddersfield to Leeds could run through to Scarborough or Saltburn instead of Hull, or alternate between the two destinations every two hours?

People would eventually get used to the removal of the turn up and go frequency and really a half hourly Manchester to Hudds (excluding the Northern all-stops) with longish trains is a decent service; and a 20 minute TPE frequency between Manchester and Leeds seems very good to me, especially as it should make the whole service more reliable. As I've said, the removal of Huddersfield from one of them isn't to save time but rather to allow a 10-coach formation to operate and free up some line capacity.

As for reinstating a Leeds - Guide Bridge line - Man Airport service, I'd be all for removing all of the North and South TPE services to the Airport, but it seems like this must never happen, so the re-routeing of the Cleethorpes service to Liverpool should free up some capacity across the Piccadilly 'throat' to allow the Ordsall Chord service to be removed and instead have the service run to the Airport from the Guide Bridge line.