Timetable planning expertise

[David Pemberton]

Hello

I'm looking for some expert help and opinion on timetable planning/design.

1. Is there enough information in the public domain to make a reasonable attempt at designing a timetable that would "prove the concept"?

2. What is considered best practice for mixing fast inter-city traffic with stopping intra-regional traffic on a predominantly two track railway?

A bit of background on these two items:

If you've read my few posts elsewhere you might have spotted that I got interested in railways when my 3.5 hour daily commute met the new EMT timetable. I now have 32 hours a year longer on the train, so to fill that time I want to see if I can design a better timetable than EMT. It stands no chance of being used, of course, but I like maths and logic, and if I can't solve the problem it might make me feel better about EMT!

1. I understand a just a few of the basics: diagrams, headways, recovery time, platform occupation, linespeeds, stops & dwells, clockface. It would be great to read a textbook and also to get specific information on the Midland main line, rather than trying to derive it from actual timetables.

2. Mixing fast and slow traffic seems to have a couple of solutions: despatching fast traffic in "flights", or using passing loops. Neither of these solutions seem obviously present in the new EMT timetable. Have they been used (and I've missed it), if not why not?

I realise that this might be too detailed for a forum so feel free to reply off-post: dpemberton[at]ntlworld[dot]com

Many thanks

 

[rail-britain]

Timetable planning is now done with software, rather than the old method of charts and paper
As a result, more trains per day can in theory be planned for routes
However, changes in operational requirements mean that average train speeds have typically fallen, which means that most routes cannot handle the same number of trains as they used to say, say 10 to 15 years ago

One of the headaches with privitisation was how to prioritise slower trains when they may conflict with faster or non-stop express services, and this still seems to be an issue to this day

An example of this are express services between Carlisle and Glasgow
In the past these were timed so that they could bypass local services between Motherwell and Uddingston
However, now there seems to be no prioritising and in some cases the express services are sent on the local route simply to waste time

 

[LilLoaf]

So want to re-design the EMT timetable do you, well a few things to remember:

Long Eaton, Loughbrough have short platforms so allow extra dwell time at them stations so people can figure what part of train to be in. Dispatches can sometimes take longer at these stations.

Suitiable turnaround times especially at St Pancras. 30 mins is useally enough for 222 maybe a bit longer for a HST

Common sence have plenty arrives into main city before 9.

Trains from London to places like Nottingham, Leicester, should stop at a few stations, trains going further should stop less places.

Platforms, might be a good idea to find out what platforms are available at what times, No point in having 6 trains arriving London in 30mins if only 3 platforms are available, just wouldn't be realistic.

Last train should be late like half 12 at night stopping all stations to Sheffield,so that anyone from anywhere can go to London and come back late.

Hope this helps you, if need any more info just drop a comment on here or private message me.

 

[The Planner]

Minimum turn around for a 222 at St Pancras is 20 mins, 30 for a HST.
Long Eaton needs a 1½ minute dwell for HSTs and 222s, ½ for anything else.
Loughbrough is the same, except anything else needs a 1 minute dwell.

Without knowledge of all the freight movements, you cant really make a good stab at it. A lot of freight movements have stronger rights than the passengers, ie: you cant move them. Thats why EMT have had a right game with the December timetable, they ploughed their trains through several freight paths expecting them to move. The freights had level 1 rights, so obviously the FOC stuck two fingers up and said we aint moving !!

You will also need knowledge of all the multi toc stations and where their services fit in, try and move someone elses train and it can bust a path anywhere else along its route. Move a XC at Leicester for example could mean it loses its path coming into New St or across the absoloute block sections out towards Peterborough.

You also need to consider the service level commitments, is there a minimum journey time services have to achieve, what level of service do particular stations have to have, what connections have to be maintained.

Also, a huge amount of the timetable is dependant on diagraming, if there isnt the unit or a driver runs out of hours, or you dont know which unit works the next service, you cant platform it at terminal stations.

 

[rail-britain]

Freight paths should be available from the Network Rail website
To work out all the available paths, etc., it means either saving all the relevant docs or printing them out
I recently had to do this to work out a suggested timetable for 2009 (assuming no changes) to demonstate an hourly Edinburgh - Inverness service, without any need for line improvements

 

[91101]

Freight paths should be available from the Network Rail website
To work out all the available paths, etc., it means either saving all the relevant docs or printing them out
I recently had to do this to work out a suggested timetable for 2009 (assuming no changes) to demonstate an hourly Edinburgh - Inverness service, without any need for line improvements

What, you're so multitaleneted, they transferred you from Group Fraud to ScotRail trainplanning?!?!

 

[Mojo]

Also you've got to take into account differences between the public timetable and the actual timetable (I can't remember what it's called).

 

[91101]

GBTT (Public) verses WTT (Working) the differences aren't huge, but allow for half minutes here and there, departure/arrival times may differ slightly too.

 

[David Pemberton]

Thank you very much for the information.

I've also just found the Rules of the Plan on the NR website.

 

[devon_metro]

I can imagine it is hell for EMT with only 4 platforms to use at St Pancras. Most Long distance operators have a lot more!

 

[class 313]

I can imagine it is hell for EMT with only 4 platforms to use at St Pancras. Most Long distance operators have a lot more!

Then on Saturdays and Sundays you have 319s using up platform 4 all day during engineering work.

 

[The Planner]

Freight paths should be available from the Network Rail website

Where ?, I wasnt aware the freight timetable was published on there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To work out all the available paths, etc., it means either saving all the relevant docs or printing them out

How you going to do that without knowing the traling weight of the train or its traction ??

 

[91101]

The Planner, m8internet is the forums resident Pinoccio! He was caught red handed trying to pass himself off as working with GC installing wi-fi when not a single member of GC staff had heard of him.

 

[rail-britain]

Where ?, I wasnt aware the freight timetable was published on there.
How you going to do that without knowing the traling weight of the train or its traction ??

No, but the paths can be found on the Network Rail website

 

[The Planner]

No, but the paths can be found on the Network Rail website

Like I asked, where ? I cant find them.

 

[rail-britain]

What, you're so multitaleneted, they transferred you from Group Fraud to ScotRail trainplanning?!?!

It came up in a conversation that I had previously worked with omnibus software and so I was asked by a colleague at First ScotRail if I could look into the Inverness - Edinburgh timetable, this I did in my spare time

 

[87015]

Like I asked, where ? I cant find them.

There are some 'track access rights' but they are years out of date and only ontain the most basic of details, headcode and arrival/departure time only really. Wouldn't have thought they'd be much good for single handedly re-writing a mainline timetable!

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.221

 

[The Planner]

It came up in a conversation that I had previously worked with omnibus software and so I was asked by a colleague at First ScotRail if I could look into the Inverness - Edinburgh timetable, this I did in my spare time

You must have made a fortune out of that then, because if NR have to use a consultant for timetable modelling then we pay a mint for it. I also find it odd that they didnt come to NR first, as whatever they wanted has to be validated, and we would tell them if it works or not.

 

[rail-britain]

The hourly Inverness - Edinburgh timetable for 2009 is still at the proposal stage
Transport Scotland are still working on the finer details
Network Rail replied that the current infrastructure could not support it, however the person working on it (for FSR) had already taken into account all the supplied and required info
The only major issue found was that one southbound service had to sit and wait 12 minutes at one station, to allow passage of the northbound NXEC service, and it might be this that Network Rail refused to support

The final proposal needs to be with Network Rail by the end of January 2009

The major downside I can see from this proposal is that some peak time services rduce from 158+170 to just a single 170
The "express" services are then operated by 158, which is sufficient as they operate non-stop from Inverness to Perth

 

[91101]

Why are transport scotland working on it? It's a timetable issue, therefore something that FSR are to deal with. TS will specifiy a given output, but they will not be involved in the construction of the timetable.

I doubt that there would be a single person working on a project like this, train planning, as I'm sure The Planner will confirm, is a varied and multidisciplinary area, and requires a lot of team work and effort and a lot of co-ordination. Because you are faimilar with a peice of software, that does not give you any of the other requiste skills.

You still have not provided a link to where this supposed freight information is available on NWR's website.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And further to the above, what is Omnibus anyway?? The train planning systems are called VoyagerPlan and CrewPlan!

 

[The Planner]

TOCs use Voyagerplan, NR use Trainplan and Railsys for modelling purposes, as will all the consultants such as RWA, Atkins, Corus etc....

91101 is correct, it is a multidisciplinary area, all in all there are 300+ people employed in NR Train planning, all dealing with the LTP timetable, STP timetable, short notice freight, spot bids, charters, engineering trains, engineering blocks and so on and so forth.

The hourly Inverness timetable I presume is for the Dec 09 timetable ?? as its too late for May. I doubt NR would object to the 12 minute dwell, if thats what it needs to work then thats what it needs, it would be FSR that would find that unacceptable.

 

[djw1981]

Maybe if you have a spare 32hrs, you could find otehr uses for it.. liek reducing your commute... maybe time to move house, get a new job etc.... 3.5hrs a day is quite a lot...

[The following is a generic point and not a criticism of the OP, sicn eI know not his circumstances]
It always amuses me when people who like their job in City of London, but like the lifestyle which that salary can buy them in East Yorkshire, and commute from Doncaster then complain about the cost / time involved. You cannot have it all ways round I guess.....

 

[rail-britain]

Why are transport scotland working on it? It's a timetable issue, therefore something that FSR are to deal with. TS will specifiy a given output, but they will not be involved in the construction of the timetable

FSR put the proposal to Transport Scotland, and accepted it
FSR then put together a frequency proposal, which was also accepted
This now requires further discussion as the current franchise does not allow for additional rolling stock, hence why Transport Scotland are working on the finer points of the accepted proposal
FSR were left in a position of trying to find ways of utilising the existing rolling stock on the proposal, which are now in place, for the launch in May 2009
This they have done and so it is now up to Transport Scotland to determine if the scheme can go ahead and what additionl funding can be approved (which is very likely as it forms part of the 2009 rail plan)

 

[The Planner]

FSR were left in a position of trying to find ways of utilising the existing rolling stock on the proposal, which are now in place, for the launch in May 2009

That doesnt sound right though, if this is all being done for the May 09 timetable, FSR should have put this to NR by the capacity request deadline which was a fair while back now. If you are completing the work by the end of January it cant be put in the May 09 timetable unless its on a spot bid basis. NR offer the May 09 timetable on 12th December, work in earnest on it will stop around the 9th.

 

[91101]

m8internet, quit before you get more egg on your face. Your lies have quite clearly been totally and utterly seen through, go back to pretending to run a minor internet hosting company, which is actually just a reseller anyway!

And looking at the First Group internal directory, there is no one by the name listed on your website, so you do not work for First Group!

 

[bluenoxid]

ROFL

Anyway, I have a better idea for the original poster. Just as much fun and involves timetabling. A lot of people will appreciate your efforts too.

Have you ever heard of simsig (simsig.co.uk)? It is a signalling simulation and one of the things you could do is come up and create a brand new timetable. Whilst Trent is still some time off, Sheffield has been created and it will give you a chance to create a fun timetable for it and try to see if you can beat EMT at their own game.

Have a look at it.

 

[djw1981]

m8internet, quit before you get more egg on your face. Your lies have quite clearly been totally and utterly seen through, go back to pretending to run a minor internet hosting company, which is actually just a reseller anyway!

And looking at the First Group internal directory, there is no one by the name listed on your website, so you do not work for First Group!

Elsewhere he suggests that he is the RTP link from First Group for Scotland.

 

[43106]

Mr Pemberton

I've been having a go at re-designing the "Inter-City" (including what is now EMT - was MML) timetable for years, and I've got no-where. My only source of information has been the Passenger TimeTable (PTT), but you need more accurate data. This can only come from the Working Timetable (WTT), which is an internal NR document (apparently consisting of 36 big, thick books), which is NOT available to the likes of you and me. You need timings as you pass through ALL junctions - e.g. at Trent Junction, you don't want a St. Pancras - Nottingham train to smash into a Derby - St Pancras HST. You can only get data like this from the WTT. Don't waste your time asking for WTT data - one contributor on this forum has made it crystal clear that you won't get it, even though much the same info freely appears in the PTT.
I'd be happy to exchange thoughts, info and ideas with you - send me a PM if you're interested.

 

[The Planner]

Thats not strictly true, he has found the RotP, he can make a pretty good go at it from there.

 

[Zoe]

I don't think you can get a document with minimum running times between stations anywhere so the only way you could work that out would be to go on the train and time it yourself and hope there are no delays.