Timetable complaint - to Network Rail?

[Tizzy]

Is it Network Rail who design timetables?

And can be complained to about them? Here's why -

I need to travel regularly from Glasgow to Swansea. Years back this meant West Coast mainline to Briston Parkway, then South Wales mainline to Swansea - both 'proper trains'.

Now you have to change at Crewe onto the Arriva scenic route via Shrewsbury and Hereford.

Going south the time between trains at Crewe (up and down stairs to change platforms) is 10 minutes. Every train from Glasgow (every 2 hours) that stops at Crewe gives you the same 10 minutes. The Virgin train is frequently late at Crewe, making you an hour late at Swansea, or if you catch the 10 am train from Glasgow and miss the conntection you're 90 minutes late at Swansea because the Arriva train you end up on goes through Cardiff at about 5pm and puts in all the commuter stops before Swansea.

I've lost count of the number of times I've had compensation from Virgin - though if you believe their explanations the delays are not even their fault ('signalling problems....')

It's the timetable that's dysfunctionalo - AFAIK a train isn't even officially late till it's delayed by more than 10 mins.

There is another train leaving Glasgow in between the on-the-hour ones - which would be an option worth taking - except that it doesn't stop at Crewe... All the trains stop at Preston AND Wigan AND Warrington, 10/15 mins apart - why not leave out one of the W's?

IThe timetable needs to be changed. I realise of course that timetabling a web of routes is a complex business and can't be changed overnight but if no-one shouts at the people who design these things it will never get better.
Virgin don't even send a formal acknowledgement of my letters.

 

[Ianno87]

There is another train leaving Glasgow in between the on-the-hour ones - which would be an option worth taking - except that it doesn't stop at Crewe... All the trains stop at Preston AND Wigan AND Warrington, 10/15 mins apart - why not leave out one of the W's?

Because that would leave Wigan or Warrington without a direct (i.e. not via Birmingham) London fast service. Spins more money than people travelling from Scotland to South Wales. Plus Wigan-Warrington is a decent local flow, for which 2tph is useful.

The timetable needs to be changed. I realise of course that timetabling a web of routes is a complex business and can't be changed overnight but if no-one shouts at the people who design these things it will never get better.
Virgin don't even send a formal acknowledgement of my letters.

These things will get looked at when the timetable is due for re-cast (clearly it was looked at in Dec 2008 given that, in theory, the connection works quite neatly on paper). Unfortunately, in this case there will be limited if any scope for tweaking the timetable to improve the connection, but such an issue will never sensibly drive a full re-cast (due to the huge number of other issues that could arise as a result).

 

[NSEFAN]

What effect would it have on other connections if you stopped the alternative service at Crewe? Whilst you might have a better connection others may now lose out, given how busy the railway is these days. If the delays are frequent then perhaps it's instead a sign that Network Rail need to improve their infrastructure reliability?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I need to travel regularly from Glasgow to Swansea. Years back this meant West Coast mainline to Briston Parkway, then South Wales mainline to Swansea - both 'proper trains'.

Now you have to change at Crewe onto the Arriva scenic route via Shrewsbury and Hereford.

Who told you you have to? You can still go via Birmingham and Bristol Parkway if you want; it just needs some extra changes, generally at Preston and Birmingham New Street.

You're right that the journey opportunity is not obvious though. A lot of suitable itineraries just fall short of the minimum connection time at Birmingham New Street, and thus aren't shown by online journey planners. I'd say the main culprit here is the government in the way it carves up the franchises and tells the train companies which services they have to run.

 

[DarloRich]

what an odd post. I doubt anyone is going to change the timetable on the result of such a strange and unclear suggestion

BTW there are 5 direct trains a day between Glasgow and Bristol.

 

[sprinterguy]

BTW there are 5 direct trains a day between Glasgow and Bristol.

By means of the long way round via North East England, it must be said. If the original poster isn't fond of the Arriva 'scenic route' via Hereford, then I can't imagine that they'll fancy a three hour journey extension just for the scenic highlights of the Northumberland coast and County Durham.

 

[DarloRich]

By means of the long way round via North East England, it must be said. If the original poster isn't fond of the Arriva 'scenic route' via Hereford, then I can't imagine that they'll fancy a three hour journey extension just for the scenic highlights of the Northumberland coast and County Durham.

whats wrong with the man?

 

[All Line Rover]

The OP should be grateful that the connection at Crewe isn't 70 minutes! Last year VTWC finally amended the arrival time of the Scotland services at Crewe from xx:59 to xx:58 in order to provide an official ten minute connection with the xx:08 ATW services (any connection below 10 minutes does not comply with the 10 minute minimum connection time at Crewe).

At least if you miss the connection you are compensated for it. Before last May, you would have had to wait at Crewe for 70 minutes every time you made this journey.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Is the southbound trip really that unreliable? I use the route fairly often and the 5-6 minute dwell that occurs at Preston tends to help negate any late running further north. (Northbound is a different matter, granted!) The problem with timetabling any form of transport is something always has to give: passengers on the very same train arrive at xx58 and have the only services each hour to Alsager and Stoke leave at xy02 and xy07, the latter for Derby too; sadly that's the way it all fits, and aside from minor tweaks it's very hard to sort out. As for culling Wigan or Warrington to insert a Crewe call on the other services ex-Preston, that will never happen in a million years.

 

[Bald Rick]

This appears to be a 'why doesn't the railway timetable its trains around my specific journey' question.

 

[eastdyke]

This appears to be a 'why doesn't the railway timetable its trains around my specific journey' question.

The timetable is fine. This bit:
The Virgin train is frequently late at Crewe

 

[All Line Rover]

The problem with timetabling any form of transport is something always has to give: passengers on the very same train arrive at xx58 and have the only services each hour to Alsager and Stoke leave at xy02 and xy07, the latter for Derby too; sadly that's the way it all fits, and aside from minor tweaks it's very hard to sort out.

My mistake. VTWC changed the arrival times from xx:59 to xx:57 in order to also connect with the xx:07 EMT services Stoke/Derby. Nice to see a genuine improvement for once!

 

[Bertie the bus]

Virgin don't even send a formal acknowledgement of my letters.

To be blunt - I don't blame them. Nobody is going to design a timetable for your personal needs and you don't need to change a Crewe. You can stay on the train to Birmingham and catch a train to Bristol Parkway from there.

Your suggestion to miss out either Wigan or Warrington is ridiculous and, as far as I can tell, is simply to make your life easier.

 

[Tizzy]

So nobody knows who designs timetables then?????

The right answer is obviously that they should get the **** trains to run on time.

If they can't (which they clearly can't) I'm looking for a way of jumping on the mis-selling bandwagon.

And yes, you can if you're nuts get a train not just direct to Bristol but to Plymouth. Clearly a joke, or a way of providing a series of overlapping shorter routes.

I'm sure there are a million services by half a million different operators covering Preston, Wigan and Warrington.

Thanks any way for your entertaining views.

 

[PHILIPE]

It would have been better when Cross Country ran services between Glasgow and the South West via WCML before the DFT put an end to it, replacing most of the WCML bit with TPE services.

 

[Darandio]

Thanks any way for your entertaining views.

I'm not sure why you haven't responded to some of the views, in particular those suggesting to travel via a different route.

Far more productive than a shouty rant I find.

 

[Ianno87]

So nobody knows who designs timetables then?????

The right answer is obviously that they should get the **** trains to run on time.

If they can't (which they clearly can't) I'm looking for a way of jumping on the mis-selling bandwagon.

And yes, you can if you're nuts get a train not just direct to Bristol but to Plymouth. Clearly a joke, or a way of providing a series of overlapping shorter routes.

I'm sure there are a million services by half a million different operators covering Preston, Wigan and Warrington.

Thanks any way for your entertaining views.

In a word, the train operators decide what trains they want to run at what times to meet their minimum service level (specified to them by the Department for Transport) and commercial aspirations (i.e. what will make them money, which will include connectional opportunities).

They bid this to Network Rail, who sort it all out and make it into a coherent timetable, offering it back to the train operators suitably amended.

By the way, there is *one* operator between Wigan and Warrington (Virgin), who provide two trains per hour. This increases between Preston and Wigan with the addition of further hourly services from each of Northern and Transpennine Express (i.e. 4 trains per hour total)

Unfortunately, a train that has to run 250+ miles from Glasgow to Crewe interacting with complex suburban passenger services around Glasgow, slow-moving freighr over the gradients in southern Scotland and the lakes, and regional services around Lancaster and Preston is always going to be challenging to be consistently on time at Crewe. Certain times of the day or week also have higher passenger volumes of people with more luggage which simply take longer to board and alight at the multiple stations along the way.

Sadly it's nowhere near as sinple as "get the ******* trains to run on time"

 

[Bevan Price]

Unfortunately, it is impossible to have perfect connections between "somewhere" and "everywhere else". However, there are cases where timetables could be planned much better, and little consideration has been given to passengers.

For example, the Crewe - Derby service (mentioned above) has lousy connections at Derby to/from Loughborough, Leicester & the southern part of MML. Even more irritating, from Crewe, as you arrive at Derby, you usually see a southbound MML semi-fast just departing.

 

[me123]

I need to travel regularly from Glasgow to Swansea. Years back this meant West Coast mainline to Briston Parkway, then South Wales mainline to Swansea - both 'proper trains'.

That's many years back, it's been some time since CrossCountry have served the WCML. In fact, over ten years. Perhaps the complaint would have been best heard at the time?

Now you have to change at Crewe onto the Arriva scenic route via Shrewsbury and Hereford.

You don't have to change at Crewe, it's one of many options available to you. Granted it's probably usually the best (i.e. shortest) option for the journey but you can choose another route if you so please, for example via Birmingham. I'd like to try and advise you on how to get a "proper train", however I'm not quite sure what you mean by that as all the trains operated in the UK are indeed "proper trains".

The journey planners usually only give you the shortest and most direct options, but if you want to go another way specify a route "via" a specific location. For example, you can put in route via Birmingham New Street; you will take longer for your journey, but if it proves to be more reliable then the existing route then it may be a better option for you.

Going south the time between trains at Crewe (up and down stairs to change platforms) is 10 minutes. Every train from Glasgow (every 2 hours) that stops at Crewe gives you the same 10 minutes. The Virgin train is frequently late at Crewe, making you an hour late at Swansea, or if you catch the 10 am train from Glasgow and miss the conntection you're 90 minutes late at Swansea because the Arriva train you end up on goes through Cardiff at about 5pm and puts in all the commuter stops before Swansea.

The railway has to meet the needs of all passengers, not just you. I'm afraid that the Scotland to South Wales flow just isn't all that big, and passengers going to other locations such as London and Birmingham will take priority simply because there are more of them. The network is so vast that co-ordinating every single journey is impossible.

That all being said, you have the opportunity for a ten minute connection in Crewe, which actually works out quite nicely when things go to plan. So the timetable isn't at all "dysfunctional", it works out quite well for you.

I've lost count of the number of times I've had compensation from Virgin - though if you believe their explanations the delays are not even their fault ('signalling problems....')

Signalling problems aren't Virgin's fault. In fact, lots of delays are due to circumstances outwith the control of the train operating companies. You wouldn't blame the bus company if the road was closed; well it's the same with the railways. Except that railways are much more complicated than roads.

There is another train leaving Glasgow in between the on-the-hour ones - which would be an option worth taking - except that it doesn't stop at Crewe... All the trains stop at Preston AND Wigan AND Warrington, 10/15 mins apart - why not leave out one of the W's?

As well as the trains that depart Glasgow at ee:00 (where e is an even hour), you can also get the ee:40 (again, e is an even hour) London bound services and change at anywhere from Carlisle-Warrington onto a Crewe stopper. Then you can make the same connection at Crewe.

The "Ws" are major North West towns that, through this timetable, have an hourly service to London and to Birmingham with Virgin. Withdrawing a call at one of the "Ws" would definitely cause more inconvenience to others than it would benefit people like yourself.

IThe timetable needs to be changed. I realise of course that timetabling a web of routes is a complex business and can't be changed overnight but if no-one shouts at the people who design these things it will never get better.
Virgin don't even send a formal acknowledgement of my letters.

Who are you going to shout at, and how on earth do you think that it will make things better? I'll stress this to you again - the timetable actually works quite well for Glasgow - South Wales, although reliability may be an issue. Changing the timetable causes problems elsewhere.

But if you think it can be done, why not have a go? Go onto a website like RealTimeTrains (others are available) and have a go at redesigning the timetable to suit you. Bear in mind that you'll have to think about the knock-on effects of your actions - so if you want the Crewe to Swansea service to run ten minutes later you'll have to find a way of making that work without impacting on other services (particularly at busy stations like Cardiff and Manchester) so you'll undoubtedly have to retime many other services to make it work which may well inconvenience others. But give it a go and let us know how you get on.

If the trains just aren't working for you, might I suggest flyBe to Cardiff and working your way to Swansea from there?

 

[PHILIPE]

Unfortunately, it is impossible to have perfect connections between "somewhere" and "everywhere else". However, there are cases where timetables could be planned much better, and little consideration has been given to passengers.

For example, the Crewe - Derby service (mentioned above) has lousy connections at Derby to/from Loughborough, Leicester & the southern part of MML. Even more irritating, from Crewe, as you arrive at Derby, you usually see a southbound MML semi-fast just departing.

To summarise, perhaps, if you retimed a connection at station A to make a connection, a connection at station B at the other end of a route could be missed as a result.

 

[D1009]

The OP does have a point, even though it comes across as a rant. The current pattern for the Virgin southbound Scotland-Brum-London services involves a wait at Wolverhampton while the XC Manchester Bournemouth overtakes. If you change at Wolves, you have a better chance of making the Plymouth train at New St. However if the VT service is late, you can end up following the Bournemouth which means legging it from one side of New St to the other in a short time, and if you don't know the reconstructed New St station you will have a good chance of missing it.

However if the destination is Swansea I don't understand why in the current timetable you would insist on using the Birmingham route.

 

[47271]

I have had a timetable changed in my favour following making multiple complaints, but it was *one* TOC and they were as inconvenienced as much as me by having to deal with the consequences of my missed connections.

Glasgow-Swansea is a long way and as a result comparatively vulnerable to delays. I've never done it so I can't provide specific advice on planning the trip. But I'd start with a programme of self help rather than making complaints to two TOCs and Network Rail about a timetable that is most unlikely to be modified in recognition.

So, if I *was* to do it, via Hereford or Bristol or even London, I'd pad my schedule around the main change to minimise my exposure to difficulty, and then relax. If not, accept that things can go wrong sometimes.

Or Flybe operate between Glasgow and Cardiff twice a day. You may be better off considering that option if you're finding the train too unreliable.

 

[me123]

So nobody knows who designs timetables then?????

The right answer is obviously that they should get the **** trains to run on time.

It's not the people who design timetables who "get the "****" trains to run on time". There are many, many reasons for delays.

If they can't (which they clearly can't) I'm looking for a way of jumping on the mis-selling bandwagon.

I'm struggling to see how you're being mis-sold... anything.

And yes, you can if you're nuts get a train not just direct to Bristol but to Plymouth. Clearly a joke, or a way of providing a series of overlapping shorter routes.

I'm not entirely sure what's a joke about the CrossCountry route. It's a perfectly legitimate way of getting to the South West of England, although you are usually quicker to change in Birmingham from the WCML when you come from Glasgow. Services like these do indeed exist to serve not only the long distance market but also the local markets in between.

I'm sure there are a million services by half a million different operators covering Preston, Wigan and Warrington.

Go on, name them. All 1,000,000 of them. And I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with anything anyway.

Thanks any way for your entertaining views.

I'll fire that last one right back at you.

 

[eastdyke]

So nobody knows who designs timetables then?????

The right answer is obviously that they should get the **** trains to run on time.

If they can't (which they clearly can't) I'm looking for a way of jumping on the mis-selling bandwagon.

And yes, you can if you're nuts get a train not just direct to Bristol but to Plymouth. Clearly a joke, or a way of providing a series of overlapping shorter routes.

I'm sure there are a million services by half a million different operators covering Preston, Wigan and Warrington.

Thanks any way for your entertaining views.

I don't believe that you have a timetable complaint but IMO you may have a complaint about reasonable expectation (of journeys generally being completed on time) when booked with a valid connection.

You do not mention how frequently you make the journey or what percentage of the journeys result in a vaild connection being missed.

Keep records, if the connection fails more than 10% of the time over a period then write again to Virgin Trains West Coast:
https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/complaint-enquiry

Then in the event of no reply from them to Passsenger Focus:
https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/

Let us know how you get on.

 

[roversfan2001]

The railway is run for the benefit of everyone, not just yourself. I'd hesitate to mention that the connection time you have at Crewe is almost *too* good for the occasional traveller, as "the trains never run on time" so you get to claim Delay Repay back for an hours delay each time (if you are to be believed that the trains are always late though of course). A station as busy as Crewe and trains on routes such as Glasgow to London via Birmingham and Manchester to South Wales can't just be changed willy-nilly.

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

 

[6Gman]

So nobody knows who designs timetables then?????

The right answer is obviously that they should get the **** trains to run on time.

If they can't (which they clearly can't) I'm looking for a way of jumping on the mis-selling bandwagon.

And yes, you can if you're nuts get a train not just direct to Bristol but to Plymouth. Clearly a joke, or a way of providing a series of overlapping shorter routes.

I'm sure there are a million services by half a million different operators covering Preston, Wigan and Warrington.

Thanks any way for your entertaining views.

No there aren't actually.

 

[Bertie the bus]

So nobody knows who designs timetables then?????

The right answer is obviously that they should get the **** trains to run on time.

If they can't (which they clearly can't) I'm looking for a way of jumping on the mis-selling bandwagon.

And yes, you can if you're nuts get a train not just direct to Bristol but to Plymouth. Clearly a joke, or a way of providing a series of overlapping shorter routes.

I'm sure there are a million services by half a million different operators covering Preston, Wigan and Warrington.

Thanks any way for your entertaining views.

And this is why Virgin ignore you. As I said previously, I don't blame them.

 

[notlob.divad]

I'm sure there are a million services by half a million different operators covering Preston, Wigan and Warrington..

Between Preston and Wigan, there are quite a few, northern 1, TPE 1, and Virgin 2. Currently run services although TPE will convert to Northern in December until the Liverpool Glasgow Service starts.

However Warrington to Wigan/Preston is limited to just the Virgin trains because everything is going to/from Manchester. Equally both stations act as mini hubs for connections between the WCML and local services.

You will be unlikely to get your wish until HS2 starts, but then it may be even worse as you might have to change stations in Birmingham.

I do have a lot of sympathy though, tight/non existent connections is my biggest bug bear particularly when it involves the last train of the day.

 

[Bevan Price]

Between Preston and Wigan, there are quite a few, northern 1, TPE 1, and Virgin 2. Currently run services although TPE will convert to Northern in December until the Liverpool Glasgow Service starts.

However Warrington to Wigan/Preston is limited to just the Virgin trains because everything is going to/from Manchester. Equally both stations act as mini hubs for connections between the WCML and local services.

.

And be thankful that you don't have to rely on connections at Warrington Bank Quay for Chester / North Wales services......

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I really don't think the OP will be back. They obviously joined expecting this place to be a national rail whingeing exchange. Of course there is a certain amount of that going on but this site is so very much more than that. Unlike some other fora out there...