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Timetable Changes for the Decarbonisation Agenda

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Starmill

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Your saying that reducing decarbonisation overrides potentially substancial inconvenience to fairly major traffic flows.
I'm merely suggesting that the Aire Valley flows are exponentially larger than the S&C flows. I don't think anyone is really in disagreement with that.
I guess with your idea's then if say Huddersfield to Leeds gets electrified first does that mean that most of the through TPE services except maybe the Bi-modes are going to get cancelled in favour of a Leeds-Huddersfield shuttle where you will have to change to go to Manchester
Yes, I would be in favour of cutting Manchester to Hull back to Leeds to Hull and stopper / fast Leeds to Huddersfield EMU absolutely. Why not? Scarborough and Middlesbrough services probably couldn't be cut into three though as that really would be taking it too far.
Leeds is too much of a major destination to ignore.
While this is true, Leeds lacks any through trains from Scunthorpe, Grimsby, Thorne, Beverley, Bridlington, Hartlepool, Sunderland, Bolton and Wigan* and there's only one train to Goole. Why are Settle and Appleby more important to Leeds than any of these places?

*there are now extremely slow through services
 
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37424

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I'm merely suggesting that the Aire Valley flows are exponentially larger than the S&C flows. I don't think anyone is really in disagreement with that.
Yes, I would be in favour of cutting Manchester to Hull back to Leeds to Hull and stopper / fast Leeds to Huddersfield EMU absolutely. Why not? Scarborough and Middlesbrough services probably couldn't be cut into three though as that really would be taking it too far.
While this is true, Leeds lacks any through trains from Scunthorpe, Grimsby, Thorne, Beverley, Bridlington, Hartlepool, Sunderland, Bolton and Wigan* and there's only one train to Goole. Why are Settle and Appleby more important to Leeds than any of these places?

*there are now extremely slow through services

Well we will have disagree on this your offering an uncompromising attitude to reducing Diesel under the wires where as I would take a more compromising attitude depending on traffic flow and would look to mitigate more in the future with greater use of Bi-modes and of course further electrification.

I think your last point is really clutching at straws, yes not every city can have a train to everywhere but Leeds offers direct trains to a substancial number of destinations and a convenient interchange onto S&C services. S&C is a major tourist route that offers a good connection at Leeds, a commuter service from Ribblehead, and alternative route to Glasgow instead of via Edinburgh with a change at Carlisle, where your solution proposes to make life more inconvenient for all these groups of customers for the benefit of removing roughly 1 diesel train under the wires per hour each way on a 26 mile route.

It might be more useful to try and get XC to buy some Bi-modes and cut that 200 mile trip every hour that XC do between York and Edinburgh or maybe just cancel XC beyond York in your world.
 

HSTEd

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S&C is a major tourist route that offers a good connection at Leeds, a commuter service from Ribblehead, and alternative route to Glasgow instead of via Edinburgh with a change at Carlisle, where your solution proposes to make life more inconvenient for all these groups of customers for the benefit of removing roughly 1 diesel train under the wires per hour each way on a 26 mile route.

A far better way from Leeds to Glasgow would just be to extend the current Leeds-Edinburgh trains, which will soon be electric all the way.
Rather than crawling along the S&C.
 

Starmill

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look to mitigate more in the future with greater use of Bi-modes and of course further electrification.

I think we can rule out the possibility of electrification beyond Skipton as there are simply too few trains. An electro-diesel unit with four coaches and 90 miles/hour capable would certainly be possible, but quite a large number of those would be needed.
A far better way from Leeds to Glasgow would just be to extend the current Leeds-Edinburgh trains, which will soon be electric all the way.
Rather than crawling along the S&C.
There are already direct trains from Leeds to Glasgow at 0543, 0808, 1008, 1208, 1408, 1608 and 1808. The 0543 is new. Trains leave Glasgow at 0601, 0748, 0900, 1100, 1300, 1500 and 1700. This service is also quicker than the S&C can deliver. Arguments about Leeds to Glasgow are simply not relevant to the S&C unfortunately.

I think there's certainly a case for saying that the second CrossCountry should be cut back from Newcastle just to York too.
 
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David Goddard

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The current timetable already has a couple of Carlisle/Morecambe trains curtailed to Skipton. is this for line or unit capacity reasons?
I think that it would be very short sighted to stop all of these at Skipton, surely one path per hour to Leeds would not cause too many issues. With pacers gone and these provided by 158s or later then these limited stop services won't be any slower than the all stations Airedale EMUs.
 

Starmill

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The current timetable already has a couple of Carlisle/Morecambe trains curtailed to Skipton. is this for line or unit capacity reasons?
I think that it would be very short sighted to stop all of these at Skipton, surely one path per hour to Leeds would not cause too many issues. With pacers gone and these provided by 158s or later then these limited stop services won't be any slower than the all stations Airedale EMUs.
It's while there are some temporary changes at Leeds yes. They are likely to be restored once platform 0 opens. Some paths are still required at 75 miles/hour.
 

37424

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I think we can rule out the possibility of electrification beyond Skipton as there are simply too few trains. An electro-diesel unit with four coaches and 90 miles/hour capable would certainly be possible, but quite a large number of those would be needed.
There are already direct trains from Leeds to Glasgow at 0543, 0808, 1008, 1208, 1408, 1608 and 1808. The 0543 is new. Trains leave Glasgow at 0601, 0748, 0900, 1100, 1300, 1500 and 1700. This service is also quicker than the S&C can deliver. Arguments about Leeds to Glasgow are simply not relevant to the S&C unfortunately.

I think there's certainly a case for saying that the second CrossCountry should be cut back from Newcastle just to York too.
Well even if we take your dismissal of Glasgow and Carlisle being an Interchange for other destinations such as GS&W route and Workington I don't believe it makes much sense to cut back S&C journeys back to Skipton for that and the other reasons I have said it doesn't really make commercial sense. Meanwhile what are you going to do about your suggested alternative the 260 mile Diesel Under the wires journey I make to Glasgow.

My view is we shouldn't axing services which are commercially significant to the Railway and convienient to the customer just to satisfy a decarbonised timetable but clearly there is a judgement to that and my judgement is probably different to yours, Instead where possible we should look how we can run these services with rolling stock that supports decarbonisation. On the East Coast we have got rid of HST's and a lot of diesel under the wires running but can still offer a variety of off wire through services thanks to the Bi-modes.
 

swt_passenger

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If paths can be found, I would suggest that the Newcastle to Morpeth/Chathill services should be transferred to Scotrail. with at least some of the trains continuing as semi-fasts to Edinburgh, and everything operated by Scotrail emus. (This would avoid having to base just a handful of Northern emus in the Newcastle area - at least until lines like Saltburn & Bishop Auckland get electrified. )
Of course Network Rail have repeatedly said paths can’t be found...
 

ainsworth74

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My view is we shouldn't axing services which are commercially significant to the Railway

I bet the value of the traffic from stations north of Skipton to Carlisle is less than the traffic from Skipton and stations on to Leeds. We're talking about a 3/4 car DMU roughly every two hours (hourly ish I suppose between Skipton and Settle Junction) which isn't always full, indeed often isn't (well until it goes south of Skipton anyway) versus the high frequency very busy EMU services between Skipton and Leeds.

I'm not sure that they are all that commercially significant...
 

37424

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I bet the value of the traffic from stations north of Skipton to Carlisle is less than the traffic from Skipton and stations on to Leeds. We're talking about a 3/4 car DMU roughly every two hours (hourly ish I suppose between Skipton and Settle Junction) which isn't always full, indeed often isn't (well until it goes south of Skipton anyway) versus the high frequency very busy EMU services between Skipton and Leeds.

I'm not sure that they are all that commercially significant...
Well if its of very little value as you state why has the Railway continued to provide a through service for some 25 years after the Airedale Electrification was completed? By the way I'm still waiting for an answer to my 260 mile under the wires journey to Glasgow and why getting rid of my 26 mile under the wires to Skipton is top priority.

I just don't see an extreme de-carbon based timetable as being particularly beneficial to the customer or railway revenue and will leave it at that.
 
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Starmill

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Well if its of very little value as you state why has the Railway continued to provide a through service for some 25 years after the Airedale Electrification was completed?
Because the government paid Northern to continue to do so. This is the result of political pressure first and foremost. The route has a strong campaigning group.
 

Starmill

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By the way I'm still waiting for an answer to my 260 mile under the wires journey to Glasgow and why getting rid of my 26 mile under the wires to Skipton is top priority.
As I've said it absolutely is within the scope of this discussion to look at withdrawing some Voyager-operated services, both with and without replacement. Services from Plymouth to Edinburgh could drop back to two-hourly north of York, and services from Reading to Newcastle could all be cut back to York. This wouldn't have massive ill effects.
 

37424

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Because the government paid Northern to continue to do so. This is the result of political pressure first and foremost. The route has a strong campaigning group.

And also perhaps it might actually be convenient to a significant customer base, anyway I think your future railway has just lost me as a customer for a number of journeys. Next time I want a trip on the S&C I will take the car to Skipton so I don't have to bother changing.

The more changes you put in the more its likely to put some customers off.
 
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David Goddard

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As I've said it absolutely is within the scope of this discussion to look at withdrawing some Voyager-operated services, both with and without replacement. Services from Plymouth to Edinburgh could drop back to two-hourly north of York, and services from Reading to Newcastle could all be cut back to York. This wouldn't have massive ill effects.
I suppose next you will cut the Plymouth end back to two-hourly south of Bristol, nothing to Penzance and can all extensions of the Manchester to Bristol trains as well
At this rate we will be back to the 1998 timetable.
 

Starmill

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I suppose next you will cut the Plymouth end back to two-hourly south of Bristol, nothing to Penzance and can all extensions of the Manchester to Bristol trains as well
At this rate we will be back to the 1998 timetable.
Those changes would genuinely negatively affect the quantum of trains on those routes though wouldn't they? There's almost always just 1tph direct between Plymouth and Bristol.

Are we really suggesting that cutting the frequency between York and Newcastle by 1tph or possibly 3tp2h isn't worth considering?
 
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This is a genuinely fascinating point. Could we put a bit of extra journey time into some long-distance services to save fuel? The capability to run at 125 could be maintained and exploited to make up time but timing speeds could be reduced to 110 on certain sections to trial fuel saving. Is the current technology suitable for this from a driver advisory perspective? This would put downwards pressure on costs too as well as carbon.
That is what many commercial passenger aircraft do. Have you noticed flight times are slower now than they used to be? Aircraft pilots try to minimise fuel usage by flying slower but more economically. If rail did the same the savings on carbon would increase but maybe services would be lost on VHF services?
 

IanXC

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I would be interested to know if a standard path from Windermere to Lancaster can be found in every hour. This would actually represent a slight improvement to the service if so. It's unclear if there's platform capacity at Lancaster to turn around an 8 car every hour though.

If capacity isn't available at Lancaster to turn such a service around, its almost certainly possible at Carnforth.

I think one of the forums favourites for the North East which may raise its head is Newcastle - Morpeth / Chathill. For a couple of years its been attached to the Newcastle to Carlisles but is being detached and looks to be standalone come this December. However still not sadly possible as the reversing sidings aren't wired and currently not possible to reverse in the loops due to signalling (can't access Up loop from Down Platform, Cant access Up Platform from Down Loop and next crossover too far and will interfere with other trains quite badly)

Presuming thats Morpeth? There is an alternative place to turn back, with a signalled move though isn't there? I can't recall what it is but I was once waiting there and said unit came empty but not from the usual turnback siding.

I certainly think there are huge benefits in cutting all DMU services back to Skipton - in particular if this would be able to eliminate 75 miles/hour running and standardise an EMU semi-fast (assuming we can find the rolling stock) in 35 min every hour (rather than only in a selection of random hours and with a 2 car DMU). I would have started off with this suggestion but it's an old favourite on here along with Morpeth so I wanted to bring something new in. I'm definitely in support of developing both ideas though.

Much as they remain timetabled at 75mph, its a very long time since any diesel other than a 158 has been to Skipton, also pre Covid-19 there were a significant number of these workings, principally to Carlisle but also a few to Lancaster, that were booked 2x 158.

Yes, I would be in favour of cutting Manchester to Hull back to Leeds to Hull and stopper / fast Leeds to Huddersfield EMU absolutely. Why not? Scarborough and Middlesbrough services probably couldn't be cut into three though as that really would be taking it too far.

So Hull to Manchester can be cut into 3 but not Scarborough or Middlesbrough?! If anything I'd argue Scarborough is at the bottom of the list, and in any case, certainly in my experience commuting on this service very very few passengers board east of York and travel beyond Leeds.

Of my own thoughts:

Theres definitely something in Morpeth/Chathill. It's nothing more of a micro operation than 3x 321s as was for the Leeds-Doncaster service. I suspect that there are probably some minor works Network Rail could do to resolve the turnback issues, and of course there is already a wired depot available at Heaton. Also frees up useful DMUs for Northerns other operations.

If it wasn't for the risk of overcrowding on the remaining CrossCountry service I'd have no qualms about terminating the South Central to North East CrossCountry service at York. Perhaps if the released stock could result in HST or 2x Voyager on all of the remaining Scottish services this could work? (Of course if this option were pursed, there would be the opportunity to run a Northern all stops service Darlington-Morpeth in its place, hopefully drawing local passengers off the Intercity services through the region).

Sheffield-Adwick, I have no real knowledge of how well this service loads, but even if it is a meaningful exercise, splitting this and running an electric shuttle Doncaster-Adwick would save 2 DMUs emissions as the timetable currently means there is not only the service train, but due to being able to interwork the diagrams of the 2 stoppers to Sheffield you'd be able to save a unit from having to go ECS to Adwick and back after working the Sheffield-Doncaster service.

It's too late at night to think further afield, but I'll put my thinking cap on in the morning.
 

class26

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Not sure why you need to bring 319's into the Northern equation, Northern allegidly hasn't been allocated all the spare 323's that are available, plus the 331 order was done the basis of Windermere being electrified so I'm sure they work something out without resorting to 319's if 'Starmills' suggestion was taken up. The Northern review talks about less but longer trains through the problem corridor so perhaps those through trains could be cut back anyway.

I'm not sure there will be a big push to really change the timetable just to support decarbonisation, in any case in the grand scheme of things how much of a difference does it make on these fairly short runs anyway, compared to benefits of say not running HST's up and down the ECML.

I think a bigger push would be cost if it became much more expensive to operate diesel.

I'm not sure about reducing the speed of some routes, if your going to use that argument then maybe we should reduce HS2 to 125mph.


Reducing speed, whilst may save fuel I can`t see being a good idea in most cases as it will lead to longer journey times and then some at least will go back to their cars this increasing CO2
 

Anvil1984

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Presuming thats Morpeth? There is an alternative place to turn back, with a signalled move though isn't there? I can't recall what it is but I was once waiting there and said unit came empty but not from the usual turnback siding.

The alternative move is to turn back on the mainline just short of Pegswood (Just after Bothal Viaduct) which I can't see going down with all of the other operators (you'd need to negotiate much better paths as the Northern service has just over 30 mins turnaround nowadays sometimes more). When the points to the reversing sidings failed a few months back it caused semi-chaos for the traincrew supervisors as only half the depot sign North of Morpeth station which can obviously be fixed if a service was to regularly turnback elsewhere (just illustrating the lack of an alternative at present)
 

ainsworth74

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So Hull to Manchester can be cut into 3 but not Scarborough or Middlesbrough?! If anything I'd argue Scarborough is at the bottom of the list, and in any case, certainly in my experience commuting on this service very very few passengers board east of York and travel beyond Leeds.

I must admit as a user of the Middlesbrough services I have to say that I'd gamble the overwhelming majority of traffic from stations north of York is to either Leeds or York. For around five years in the late 2000s I would get a peak time TPE (the 1712 from memory) from Leeds to Yarm maybe every couple of months (say six or seven times a year). It was always standing room only from Leeds to York where basically the entire train got off and then you'd be doing poorly if you didn't get a set of airline seats to yourself or even a table.

Even today from my observations of the service the majority of people are passengers between Leeds and Middlesbrough (well Redcar I suppose now!) and that ties with my own observations (and usage!!) and of that of various people that I know up here. Which isn't to say that there aren't people that go to Manchester or the Airport but, if we're talking about cutting routes in half, I would offer up Middlesbrough/Redcar and Scarborough personally (though obviously I'd rather it was Scarborough :lol:).
 

Starmill

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So Hull to Manchester can be cut into 3 but not Scarborough or Middlesbrough?! If anything I'd argue Scarborough is at the bottom of the list, and in any case, certainly in my experience commuting on this service very very few passengers board east of York and travel beyond Leeds.
I was actually trying to sneak the idea in that there could be a reduction of 1tph of fast services between Leeds and Manchester there, from 5 to 4, so there would be a Hull to Leeds and then a connection at Leeds to another fast service.

Of course, that could work just as well with a Scarborough to Leeds service and a Hull to Liverpool, but that would require a greater reorganisation, and more radical changes to rolling stock use.
 
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