Time to rename the "BBC Studios" bus stops in Cardiff?

[Floss63]

It's five years since BBC Wales moved out of their former site on Llantrisant Road in Cardiff. The old buildings have been demolished and redeveloped for housing yet the bus stops, on both sides of the road, are still named "BBC Studios." It seems strange, and misleading, when the buildings are long gone and the main BBC Wales building is now opposite Cardiff Central station and the studios are in Roath Lock. Do you think it's time the bus stops outside the old BBC site were renamed?

 

[Wawanesa]

You're a bit optimistic. Around our way some of the bus stop names are forty years out of date. Basically it is county councils who have the power to change names but due to cutbacks they don't have the time or inclination.

 

[robertclark125]

Up here in Fife, one bus stop is called "kingdom services", despite the services closing over ten years ago, and is now a council depot.

 

[markymark2000]

It's five years since BBC Wales moved out of their former site on Llantrisant Road in Cardiff. The old buildings have been demolished and redeveloped for housing yet the bus stops, on both sides of the road, are still named "BBC Studios." It seems strange, and misleading, when the buildings are long gone and the main BBC Wales building is now opposite Cardiff Central station and the studios are in Roath Lock. Do you think it's time the bus stops outside the old BBC site were renamed?

The issue with Wales is that Naptan (the bus stop database in short) is managed by Traveline Cymru and this is what is used for online services and fed into the operators ticket machines (unless the operator chooses to override) etc etc.

The bus stop flags and timetables are in many cases being managed by the bus operators (hence you end up with nonsense such as in Cardiff City Centre where you have Cardiff Bus flags and Adventure Travel bus stop flags on the same bus stop). Then you have any operator systems that would need manually updating, things such as next stop announcement systems (Which I believe don't auto update when Naptan updates).

So while yes, the bus stop name should be changed here, it'd need to be a multi organisation effort else you'd end up with online saying 1 thing, the bus stop saying something completely different, and then on bus announcements/screens using another name. DFT have been trying to push authorities to have all details matching, and so without everyone working together it will lead to inconsistencies (https://beta-naptan.dft.gov.uk/article/how-to-name-bus-stops-in-na-ptan)

You're a bit optimistic. Around our way some of the bus stop names are forty years out of date. Basically it is county councils who have the power to change names but due to cutbacks they don't have the time or inclination.

Have you reported it to the council? 40 years out of date seems doesn't sound quite right but either way. Depending on if the stop name is on the bus stop flag, it may be able to be fixed within a few minutes by the council.

Up here in Fife, one bus stop is called "kingdom services", despite the services closing over ten years ago, and is now a council depot.

Have you reported this to the council? Fife aren't the best at updating Naptan but least they can be aware and try to sort it? A lot of stop names get missed over time as councils have thousands of bus stops on the database and it's not easy to go through each one.

 

[py_megapixel]

So while yes, the bus stop name should be changed here, it'd need to be a multi organisation effort else you'd end up with online saying 1 thing, the bus stop saying something completely different, and then on bus announcements/screens using another name.

For what it's worth this is exactly the problem we have in Sheffield in many places. On the 51 and 52 routes is a stop called "Children's Hospital" which the buses announce as "Damer Street". Further down the road is a stop with three names depending on who you ask: "City Hall" (trams and First buses), "West Street" (sign at the stop) or "Carver Street" (Stagecoach buses).

 

[markymark2000]

For what it's worth this is exactly the problem we have in Sheffield in many places.

None of this is helped by Travel South Yorkshire being stupidly bad at maintaining their Naptan and having consistency. They have a good number of entries which don't even comply with the Naptan Schema. How can there be consistency when the authority refuses to follow the book on how it should be done?
As proven by their nonsense naming for stops such as the bus stop at Halfway Tram Terminus. You'd call it Halfway Interchange, or maybe Halfway Tram Stop to promote the interchange with the tram? No? What a silly idea that is according to Travel South Yorkshire, the bus stop in the bus only layby less than 10 metres walk to the tram stop, is called 'Eckington Way/Station Road'

South Yorkshire is just a lost cause and they do what they want, ignoring any common sense or even the actual Naptan schema.

 

[Falcon1200]

Whereas in Oxford, on the Marston Road, there was a stop called 'The Friar', after the nearby pub. After the pub was replaced by flats the stop was renamed after a side street..... 'Crotch Crescent'. Not such a nice name, IMHO.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Some areas have changed their approach to nomenclature to be adjacent side streets rather than places of interest for this very reason - pubs close, shops change names etc.

 

[markymark2000]

Some areas have changed their approach to nomenclature to be adjacent side streets rather than places of interest for this very reason - pubs close, shops change names etc.

The logic of using side street names works great in most cases. For things such as a large place of national interest, such as hospitals though or interchange facilities with other transport modes, there are times when common sense should take over and move away from the naming convention of side street names. Or if a bus stop literally exists purely to serve one place, then name it after that one place. The GXO warehouse in Barnsley is one example. Stops inside a major supermarket grounds are another. Or where it's a well known landmark that doesn't change it name often/ever (so City Hall for example).
There is also the fact South Yorkshire make stop names extremely long by using both current street name and side street name. Sometimes both aren't needed and again, a bit of common sense would go a long way.

Pub names, local shops, and post offices though, I fully agree it's silly to name after as these do change (or in the post office case, move) quite a lot.

 

[Andy Pacer]

The logic of using side street names works great in most cases. For things such as a large place of national interest, such as hospitals though or interchange facilities with other transport modes, there are times when common sense should take over and move away from the naming convention of side street names. Or if a bus stop literally exists purely to serve one place, then name it after that one place. The GXO warehouse in Barnsley is one example. Stops inside a major supermarket grounds are another. Or where it's a well known landmark that doesn't change it name often/ever (so City Hall for example).
There is also the fact South Yorkshire make stop names extremely long by using both current street name and side street name. Sometimes both aren't needed and again, a bit of common sense would go a long way.

Pub names, local shops, and post offices though, I fully agree it's silly to name after as these do change (or in the post office case, move) quite a lot.

Agreed, although this does cause complications when supermarkets close or changed their names. Fortunately in my time working with local authorities agreeing Naptan names common sense (in the areas I was involved in) generally prevailed.

 

[EdinRH]

There was a similar discussion about renaming bus stops back in 2023.

Changing the 'name' of a bus stop

How common / often is it that a bus stop is renamed? It got me thinking earlier on the route to Pontefract one of the stops for example is 'Stuart Road Swimming Baths' ... but that actual building has been closed and derelict a couple of years now due to the new leisure centre at Pontefract...

www.railforums.co.uk

Also, at the same time there was a similar discussion in the General Discussion about outdated place names on other types of public notice.

Names which are relics of places that no longer exist

There was a discussion in the Bus forum about bus stops still being officially named years later after long-demolished buildings, railway stations that closed in the Beeching cuts, pubs that had long since changed their names etc and asking whether the bus flags should be changed to something up...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Thames99]

The other consideration is that although a pub or shop may be long gone the old name continues to be used locally for decades. Staples Corner in London retains its name despite the Staples factory closing the best part of forty years ago.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The other consideration is that although a pub or shop may be long gone the old name continues to be used locally for decades. Staples Corner in London retains its name despite the Staples factory closing the best part of forty years ago.

I was going to make the same point. In Shildon (Co Durham), one stop was the Hippodrome until the last 10 years (?) - it is no longer served.

The place closed in 1961, and was a bingo hall until closure, and demolition in 1994!

 

[Simon75]

D&G have 10 Weston (Macclesfield) to Bollington which has a stop call Fitz Crescent, instead of The Brocklehurst Arms, which is still a pub.
In Bradwell , Newcastle Under Lyme instead of Bradwell Shops, they have St Michael's church, which not many people will look out for

 

[TUC]

Yet again, one is unfortunately left with the question why public bodies and transport operators are such plodders when it comes to basic nimbleness in managing information systems?

 

[Jim James]

If they changer bus stop names they will spend as fortune constantly changing them. Lot of stops get named after pubs many of which have now diapered

 

[py_megapixel]

The logic of using side street names works great in most cases. For things such as a large place of national interest, such as hospitals though or interchange facilities with other transport modes, there are times when common sense should take over and move away from the naming convention of side street names. Or if a bus stop literally exists purely to serve one place, then name it after that one place.

You also have to be careful with which side streets you name after, to avoid getting messes like the 52 in Sheffield - it has two stops called Heavygate Road, two called Rockingham Street, two called Attercliffe Road, two called Old Retford Road and three called Beaver Hill Road.

Similarly the 120 serves the same pair of "Rockingham Street"s, but also has two "Moss Way"s and, ridiculously, a pair of consecutive stops on City Road called "Cemetery" and "City Road Cemetery". It's as if the names were chosen by different people.

Another pitfall is naming a stop after a long road that the bus serves anyway. For example, passengers alighting at "Ecclesall Road" on routes 65, 81, 82, 83 and 88 would probably be disappointed to find themselves on a busy roundabout, quite far from most of the housing and businesses on Ecclesall Road, with the bus disappearing towards their destination without them! A better name for the stop would be something like "Hanover Way Roundabout"

(Also further out on the 65 is a stop just called something like "Access track", which is incredibly unhelpful)

Finally it's also a good idea to make sure the stop name uses the correct spelling of the side street name! Sounds obvious, but nonetheless I can think of several examples in Sheffield where they've got this wrong.

 

[Falcon1200]

Lot of stops get named after pubs many of which have now disappeared

As per the example in my post #7, however the renaming was somewhat unnecessary as the flats which replaced the Friar pub are called Friar Court!

 

[geoffk]

I suppose that, the more bus stop names are embedded in information systems, the more difficult and expensive it is to change a name - a bit like changing a railway station name or platform number.

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

Bring it up with the local authority? Another reason as to why I seldom visit this forum. Travel West Yorkshire Proboards for the win.

 

[markymark2000]

Bring it up with the local authority? Another reason as to why I seldom visit this forum. Travel West Yorkshire Proboards for the win.

IT's a local authority issue, why wouldn't you bring it up with the local authority? Unless WY Metro staff are on that other forum, issues are unlikely to get resolved any more posting things there, than here. And who knows, we may have local authority staff on here reading the comments?

 

[TUC]

I suppose that, the more bus stop names are embedded in information systems, the more difficult and expensive it is to change a name - a bit like changing a railway station name or platform number.

Any of us can change a word to another 100 times over in a document with one click. Why should it be any more difficult for LA information systems?

 

[Jim James]

Any of us can change a word to another 100 times over in a document with one click. Why should it be any more difficult for LA information systems?

It should b a simple database entry change which could b done in minutes

 

[gordonthemoron]

In Newcastle, there’s still a bus stop for Tyne Tees, which closed and was demolished in 2010

 

[markymark2000]

Any of us can change a word to another 100 times over in a document with one click. Why should it be any more difficult for LA information systems?

Mostly because updating 1 word on a database, has such a huge impact.
So for example, the council changes the name, that then means the stop flag (if it includes the stop name, which most LAs do) and bus stop timetable need replacing. Any real time information displays at the stops would likely also need updating with the new stop name. These are normally within the councils control, but not always. It also means that operators need to update various of their systems so that data is consistent, Not just making sure the stop name fits into the next stop display (most of these have character counts which are lower than the max character count on Naptan), but also get any announcements updated.

And all of this, relies upon the local authority being willing to update the database. It's taking some authorities months, if not years from first being contacted, to actually updating coordinates so that journey planners tell people the correct place to get on the bus and so announcements trigger at the right times etc.
Leicester City Council who installed new shelters with big boards for the top at the train station a few years ago, but still 3+ years on, refuse to update the stop name to match the new stop name on the flag (and match the other 3 stops in the row). They claim the stop wasn't renamed, despite physical evidence being there for 3+ years, and operators all manually overriding their systems to show the new stop name. Council says no, and as they are the gatekeeper of Naptan, there is nothing anyone can do to get it sorted, you just need to wait for the council to employ new staff in the offices eventually and hope they apply more sense to the situation.


So while I fully agree, it SHOULD be much easier and quicker to changing a stop name, sadly too many local authorities are ignoring Naptan and don't understand the importance of it and importance of having it all correct and upto date. Even if authorities are good at updating the database though, they then need to look at any costs to update roadside things. Then they need to be speaking to operators and rely on them to update all of their systems properly or you end up like Stagecoach and just announcing/showing incorrect details because they are using years old versions of Naptan (and let's be honest, operators already can't be bothered now to set it up properly now. What hope is there for them to maintain these systems long term?).

 

[Floss63]

Mostly because updating 1 word on a database, has such a huge impact.
So for example, the council changes the name, that then means the stop flag (if it includes the stop name, which most LAs do) and bus stop timetable need replacing. Any real time information displays at the stops would likely also need updating with the new stop name. These are normally within the councils control, but not always. It also means that operators need to update various of their systems so that data is consistent, Not just making sure the stop name fits into the next stop display (most of these have character counts which are lower than the max character count on Naptan), but also get any announcements updated.

And all of this, relies upon the local authority being willing to update the database. It's taking some authorities months, if not years from first being contacted, to actually updating coordinates so that journey planners tell people the correct place to get on the bus and so announcements trigger at the right times etc.
Leicester City Council who installed new shelters with big boards for the top at the train station a few years ago, but still 3+ years on, refuse to update the stop name to match the new stop name on the flag (and match the other 3 stops in the row). They claim the stop wasn't renamed, despite physical evidence being there for 3+ years, and operators all manually overriding their systems to show the new stop name. Council says no, and as they are the gatekeeper of Naptan, there is nothing anyone can do to get it sorted, you just need to wait for the council to employ new staff in the offices eventually and hope they apply more sense to the situation.


So while I fully agree, it SHOULD be much easier and quicker to changing a stop name, sadly too many local authorities are ignoring Naptan and don't understand the importance of it and importance of having it all correct and upto date. Even if authorities are good at updating the database though, they then need to look at any costs to update roadside things. Then they need to be speaking to operators and rely on them to update all of their systems properly or you end up like Stagecoach and just announcing/showing incorrect details because they are using years old versions of Naptan (and let's be honest, operators already can't be bothered now to set it up properly now. What hope is there for them to maintain these systems long term?).

I drove past the "BBC Studios" bus stops yesterday and noticed, to my amazement, that the stop flag on the one opposite the old studios site now reads "Plas Gwyn". I have no idea when this happened, but it makes sense as it is outside the Plas Gwyn student halls of residence. But on both the Cardiff Bus and Stagecoach journey planners, and on audio visual displays on buses, the stop is still called "BBC Studios".

 

[Peter Sarf]

This is why I have learnt to treat information with suspicion. Never believe it.

I was going to say the stop in the OPs post should be changed to Cardiff Central Station - oh how wrong I am !.

 

[markymark2000]

I have no idea when this happened, but it makes sense as it is outside the Plas Gwyn student halls of residence. But on both the Cardiff Bus and Stagecoach journey planners, and on audio visual displays on buses, the stop is still called "BBC Studios".

All journey planners won't be updated unless the operators manually override, or Traveline Cymru get the details, and update the Cardiff Naptan. Am I also right in presuming that this would have been updated with a new Cardiff Bus flag? If so, there is a good chance that Stagecoach won't even know the stop name has changed.

 

[prod_pep]

The Dulas Arms pub in Llanddulas closed a good 12 years ago now and has been private housing for around a decade or so, but still the bus stop keeps its name. I doubt there is any clamour for it to change in the near future, quite rightly, although Arriva's automated announcements could at least pronounce it correctly. It would probably take the name of the nearby landfill site if anything.

 

[RT4038]

Mostly because updating 1 word on a database, has such a huge impact.
So for example, the council changes the name, that then means the stop flag (if it includes the stop name, which most LAs do) and bus stop timetable need replacing. Any real time information displays at the stops would likely also need updating with the new stop name. These are normally within the councils control, but not always. It also means that operators need to update various of their systems so that data is consistent, Not just making sure the stop name fits into the next stop display (most of these have character counts which are lower than the max character count on Naptan), but also get any announcements updated.

And all of this, relies upon the local authority being willing to update the database. It's taking some authorities months, if not years from first being contacted, to actually updating coordinates so that journey planners tell people the correct place to get on the bus and so announcements trigger at the right times etc.
Leicester City Council who installed new shelters with big boards for the top at the train station a few years ago, but still 3+ years on, refuse to update the stop name to match the new stop name on the flag (and match the other 3 stops in the row). They claim the stop wasn't renamed, despite physical evidence being there for 3+ years, and operators all manually overriding their systems to show the new stop name. Council says no, and as they are the gatekeeper of Naptan, there is nothing anyone can do to get it sorted, you just need to wait for the council to employ new staff in the offices eventually and hope they apply more sense to the situation.


So while I fully agree, it SHOULD be much easier and quicker to changing a stop name, sadly too many local authorities are ignoring Naptan and don't understand the importance of it and importance of having it all correct and upto date. Even if authorities are good at updating the database though, they then need to look at any costs to update roadside things. Then they need to be speaking to operators and rely on them to update all of their systems properly or you end up like Stagecoach and just announcing/showing incorrect details because they are using years old versions of Naptan (and let's be honest, operators already can't be bothered now to set it up properly now. What hope is there for them to maintain these systems long term?).

And there lies the problems with the entire system. It is too complicated and is a 'bolt on' to many downstream systems which requires updating / downloading of files for which neither the Local Authority or the Bus Operatos have staff resources (both in quantity and quality) to do the work.

When the Naptan system was first set up (2002-3ish) many Local Authorities did not have the staff resource to locate and document/digitally co-ordinate the stops, so contracted Consulting companies to do it. They didn't have the staff either so employed students to do the work, who didn't necessarily have the motivation to do a good job, nor the knowledge of where the bus routes went. Many bus stops went undocumented. When the bus companies started electronic bus registrations some of these missing stops got put in the database, but by no means all. Many stops are in the database but their digital co-ordinates are not quite in the right place.

Local Authorities have since been hollowed out of staff, and the bus operators have reduced theirs, plus lost a lot of their expertise due to retirements of the pre Deregulation era staff. In my county of residence (with 3.5k Naptan stops + an unknown quantity of stops not in Naptan) there is one person (office bound) who does Naptan, plus a whole host of other jobs. Keeping the database 'up to date' relies entirely on reports of issues / out of date names / new bus stops at new developments / etc. from members of the public, bus operator staff, or some other event bring it to attention. There is nobody available to go around specifically looking for these things. As for stop names - don't even get me going on that subject. With the current level of resource available only the glaring historic names are likely to get changed, probably years after they have become extinct.

As for 'speaking to operators' - they don't have the resource either. They don't have systems that automatically change things when the Naptan data is updated. They struggle to produce the timetable database, let alone updating stop names.

This (and the audio/visual announcements) are examples of how well meaning policies of Central Government civil servants are simply not translating into anything satisfactory on the ground. A one off pot of funding to set the system up and a total underestimate of the resource required, and the cost, of maintaining going forward - this being tipped onto Local Authorities and Bus Operators who cannot afford to fund them, and a regulatory system that has no funds for any enforcement.