Tilting IEP?

[Mordac]

Just thinking about the coming ICWC renewal. Would it be feasible to have a tilting, bi-mode IEP, or would the gauging issues be too great/too many technical issues in reducing the size. I'm just thinking bi-mode working would be very welcome for the Chester and Holyhead workings, plus to get rid of diesel under wires in the Brum to Scotland services. And the Voyagers could go somewhere else (XC?). Does anyone have any thoughts on the feasibility of this?

 

[Harbornite]

That could be a good idea if Hitachi deemed it feasible. The alternative is to get new Pendolinos (not Class 390s, I should add), although you wouldn't have bi-mode capabilities.

 

[MarkyT]

Just thinking about the coming ICWC renewal. Would it be feasible to have a tilting, bi-mode IEP, or would the gauging issues be too great/too many technical issues in reducing the size. I'm just thinking bi-mode working would be very welcome for the Chester and Holyhead workings, plus to get rid of diesel under wires in the Brum to Scotland services. And the Voyagers could go somewhere else (XC?). Does anyone have any thoughts on the feasibility of this?

I'm sure Hitachi could develop something like this with a lot of common components, but it would be a completely new bodyshell design I imagine. The AT300 series derives from a Japanese non tilting narrow gauge design, where the structure gauge is very similar to our own UK standard gauge profile, including the intrusive high platform edges.

 

[RobShipway]

Any Hitachi Tilting train would be based on their narrow gauge trains as per http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/rolling_stock/tilting/ and as said above would require a new bodyshell to be built for these trains to use.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Just thinking about the coming ICWC renewal. Would it be feasible to have a tilting, bi-mode IEP, or would the gauging issues be too great/too many technical issues in reducing the size. I'm just thinking bi-mode working would be very welcome for the Chester and Holyhead workings, plus to get rid of diesel under wires in the Brum to Scotland services. And the Voyagers could go somewhere else (XC?). Does anyone have any thoughts on the feasibility of this?

Wire to Holyhead and be done with it.

 

[Harbornite]

Wire to Holyhead and be done with it.

I know this is a bit off topic, but a good add-on scheme would be Chester- Shrewsbury- Wolverhampton. It would be rather expensive due to obvious reasons, but you would be able to have all Birmingham- Shrewsbury locals and the London- Shrewsbury west coast service as electrics, as well as any Welsh services from Birmingham to Holyhead. All Cambrian services would remain as diesel but this isn't a big deal.

 

[MarkyT]

Any Hitachi Tilting train would be based on their narrow gauge trains as per http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/rolling_stock/tilting/ and as said above would require a new bodyshell to be built for these trains to use.

Looks like the 885 series is tilt fitted with a body similar to the AT300:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/885_series

Video clearly showing an 885 tilting:
https://youtu.be/KupjpTCAKlI?t=1m29s

Rather than having especially narrow bodyshells tapering towards the roof-line, another approach to tilting could be to improve clearances for standard body vehicles on the curves where they need to tilt, and where not possible or cost effective just accept the speed limitation that imposes, compensating as necessary with excellent performance to accelerate away again as quickly as possible. I wonder if, perhaps, that represents the Japanese approach? Note Japanese tilt is only up to 5% rather than European 8%.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I know this is a bit off topic, but a good add-on scheme would be Chester- Shrewsbury- Wolverhampton. It would be rather expensive due to obvious reasons, but you would be able to have all Birmingham- Shrewsbury locals and the London- Shrewsbury west coast service as electrics, as well as any Welsh services from Birmingham to Holyhead. All Cambrian services would remain as diesel but this isn't a big deal.

It's high up on one of the lists - could be the refreshed Electrification RUS, the Wales RUS or maybe the Rail North report.

 

[Mordac]

Wire to Holyhead and be done with it.

Wasn't there a report a while ago saying there was no business case to wire west of Chester? Regardless, even if this were to be done, we'd be in the next ICWC franchise and the Voyagers would have been turned into razor blades already anyway (or more worryingly, still be trudging along).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Proposals for the next ICWC franchise will start being put together at the end of this year.
I imagine initial discussions will already be under way with manufacturers.
Much depends on the DfT's policy for the WCML, linked to HS2 opening.
The don't seem keen to extend tilt operation in the UK, the killer being non-tilt classic-compatibles on HS2.
Virgin, First and others might well bid with more tilting trains, particularly to eliminate Voyagers running wholly under the wires, but I have my doubts whether DfT will want them.
We'll see in the ITT - the "vision" document carefully doesn't go into rolling stock.
DfT is in print suggesting the cascade of Pendolinos to the Hope Valley route, for instance, after they are displaced from the WCML by HS2.
Another HS2-related factor is the possibility of new sections of route north of Wigan into Scotland.
That would further depress the business case for tiling trains.

I think tilt has been a great success on the WCML, and I continue to be baffled why it has not been rolled out on other suitable routes (eg MML, TP).
Any tilting train for the WCML would have to use Alstom's TASS, which is another reason Hitachi would not be keen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any Hitachi Tilting train would be based on their narrow gauge trains as per http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/rolling_stock/tilting/ and as said above would require a new bodyshell to be built for these trains to use.

Looking at this:

http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/rolling_stock/tilting/feature05.html

any such stock would be very narrow at floor level to allow for the passive tilt. I can't see this being suitable for the UK.

 

[Harbornite]

It's high up on one of the lists - could be the refreshed Electrification RUS, the Wales RUS or maybe the Rail North report.

Good to hear. I do think that Wolves- Shrews has very good case because it will free up so many units and will be an impetus for infilling Shrewsbury to Crewe and Chester. Unlike Snow Hill to Worcester, it is only a comparatively short hop that doesn't have to be done concurrently with other electrification schemes and there is demand there for electric services from Birmingham and London. Obviously a major signalling is required at Shrewsbury but doing this would reduce the need for the West Coast franchise to get bi modes.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Wasn't there a report a while ago saying there was no business case to wire west of Chester?

Yeah, business case to Chester is fantastic, business case further west is bad or dire depending on the numbers.

One option to throw around is post HS2 opening, running a bi-mode 110mph service to Holyhead. 110mph doesn't need tilt so conventional Class 802 stock could run the service. HS2 might allow IEP units at 140mph to run as far as Birmingham or Crewe then proceed at upto 110mph to Chester on electric (assuming Chester electrification) and onwards from there on diesel.

There's probably, truth be told, enough options and flexibility to allow non tilting bi-mode stock to serve Holyhead.

 

[Domh245]

Looks like the 885 series is tilt fitted with a body similar to the AT300:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/885_series

Video clearly showing an 885 tilting:
https://youtu.be/KupjpTCAKlI?t=1m29s

Rather than having especially narrow bodyshells tapering towards the roof-line, another approach to tilting could be to improve clearances for standard body vehicles on the curves where they need to tilt, and where not possible or cost effective just accept the speed limitation that imposes, compensating as necessary with excellent performance to accelerate away again as quickly as possible. I wonder if, perhaps, that represents the Japanese approach? Note Japanese tilt is only up to 5% rather than European 8%.

That train is 'narrow' gauge, so will have a narrower body than a standard gauge train. This means that the like for like clearance is less

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, business case to Chester is fantastic, business case further west is bad or dire depending on the numbers.

One option to throw around is post HS2 opening, running a bi-mode 110mph service to Holyhead. 110mph doesn't need tilt so conventional Class 802 stock could run the service. HS2 might allow IEP units at 140mph to run as far as Birmingham or Crewe then proceed at upto 110mph to Chester on electric (assuming Chester electrification) and onwards from there on diesel.

That is exactly the kind of use-case for HS2 that I see as a benefit - very similar to the Swiss NBS.

 

[MarkyT]

That train is 'narrow' gauge, so will have a narrower body than a standard gauge train. This means that the like for like clearance is less

Not a narrower body necessarily (except as required by tilting). Can't remember who said it originally but we in the UK have the unique distinction of running narrow gauge sized trains on standard gauge tracks. Take a look at this Japanese rolling stock gauge diagram:
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/車両限界#/media/File:Rolling-Stock-Gauge-in-Japan.svg
Blue and grey are narrow gauge profiles for older and newer lines respectively, whilst green is standard gauge Shinkansen.

 

[The Planner]

Why does the new ICWC franchise need new stock anyway? 390s have years left in them.

 

[Mordac]

Why does the new ICWC franchise need new stock anyway? 390s have years left in them.

To replace the Super Voyagers, as I said in my post. The pendos are fine.

 

[rebmcr]

Not a narrower body necessarily (except as required by tilting). Can't remember who said it originally but we in the UK have the unique distinction of running narrow gauge sized trains on standard gauge tracks. Take a look at this Japanese rolling stock gauge diagram:
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/車両限界#/media/File:Rolling-Stock-Gauge-in-Japan.svg
Blue and grey are narrow gauge profiles for older and newer lines respectively, whilst green is standard gauge Shinkansen.

English link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rolling-Stock-Gauge-in-Japan.svg
UIC comparison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Railway_Loading_gauge_UIC_and_containers_profile_-ISO.png

 

[Bevan Price]

You have until 2 August 2016 to send your comments on the new franchise to DfT:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/future-of-intercity-west-coast-rail-franchise

 

[WideRanger]

Japan uses a variety of track gauges (the privatised JR companies use a narrow gauge for traditional lines and standard gauge for Shinkansen operations, the various private railways use several different track gauges including standard gauge). However, even on the narrow gauge trains, the loading gauge is often bigger than that in the UK. Tiliting trains are generally used only on main intercity routes where Shinkansen is not viable. On other non-urban lines, the trains generally pootle along at pretty modest speeds (rarely above 75mph, in my experience)

 

[MarkyT]

Japan uses a variety of track gauges

. . . including, very unusually, a few 4' 6" suburban lines, originally so specified to be compatible with the now largely closed Tokyo city street tramway network of the same gauge. Otherwise mostly 3' 6", a fair amount of 4' 8 1/2" (not just high speed) and a little 2' 6". Sorry, I'll stop going off topic now!

 

[Mordac]

Yeah, business case to Chester is fantastic, business case further west is bad or dire depending on the numbers.

One option to throw around is post HS2 opening, running a bi-mode 110mph service to Holyhead. 110mph doesn't need tilt so conventional Class 802 stock could run the service. HS2 might allow IEP units at 140mph to run as far as Birmingham or Crewe then proceed at upto 110mph to Chester on electric (assuming Chester electrification) and onwards from there on diesel.

There's probably, truth be told, enough options and flexibility to allow non tilting bi-mode stock to serve Holyhead.

If they could get to Birmingham on HS2 and meet MU differentials, they could run 125mph anyway, as the Birmingham loop is 125mph for both MU and EPS speeds (I assume because the Pendos don't meet MU differentials, though the Voyagers do). So that would be the ideal solution. Unfortunately, HS2 is not going to be ready before the tail end of the ICWC franchise anyway, IIRC?