Tickets machines and Querty keyboards

[Norfolk25]

I tend to buy tickets from home and collect them at the station.
The ticket machines have on-screen Querty Keyboards which makes entering the collection number a much longer process that it has to be.
There is often a queue and you can see that some people struggle to find where the letters are, particularly as the display is much lower than your eye level.
As you can only enter one digit at at time why are the letters not listed as ABCDEFG etc.

The Querty keyboard was designed so that you can use all your fingers and thumbs to type quickly. The frequently used letters are seperated from each other.
It is not very useful or practical for entering a long alpha-numeric number, one letter at a time.

 

[3rd rail land]

Most people are very familiar with the Qwerty keyboard layout so will know where each letter resides on the on screen keyboard. Better to stick to what people know than try to reinvent the wheel.

If there was an option to change the layout to ABCDEF I suspect it would take longer to switch over to that than use the Qwerty keyboard. Plus I reckon the railway has far more pressing matters to deal with than the keyboard layout on TVMs.

 

[alxndr]

At the risk of causing offense, I suspect this may be a generational preference.

I find QWERTY keyboards faster to navigate than alphabetical ones. QWERTY keyboards are relatively standardised and the preferred layout for most forms of technology, so I find I don't consciously have to think about letter placement relative to each other. Alphabetical keyboards are not standardised in terms of how many rows or columns they have so letters don't have predictable locations and it takes a conscious effort to find them.

 

[Spartacus]

I struggle with alphabetic keyboards, which my local TOC seems to like, everything's just in the wrong place. Although it's a mere hangover from mechanical typewriters I suspect the Qwerty keyboard will only become more popular as time goes on.

Although it's not a proper international standard (other languages inevitably had slightly different needs when arranging their keys) the alphabetical ones are frustratingly random over how many lines they have, if their centrally or left justified etc. The ones arranged to mimic the Qwerty keyboard are the worst for me, and I suspect it must be troublesome even for those who prefer them, they really need some form of standardisation. It'd be nice just have one button to switch between the two, similar to switching between letters and numbers/symbols/emoji, I wouldn't have thought it'd be hard, but there seems a reluctance, you either get one or the other.

 

[Turtle]

At the risk of causing offense, I suspect this may be a generational preference.

I find QWERTY keyboards faster to navigate than alphabetical ones. QWERTY keyboards are relatively standardised and the preferred layout for most forms of technology, so I find I don't consciously have to think about letter placement relative to each other. Alphabetical keyboards are not standardised in terms of how many rows or columns they have so letters don't have predictable locations and it takes a conscious effort to find them.

Agreed. As to the generational thing, bear in mind that most office workers have been using keyboards since the 1980s at least so there are plenty of over 60s familiar with qwerty.

 

[TFN]

The ticket machines at Elizabeth Line stations gives the QWERTY as default but you can switch it to ABCDE if preferred.

It shows that it is possible to have both but I couldn't imagine typing in anything other than QWERTY.

 

[Norfolk25]

At the risk of causing offense, I suspect this may be a generational preference.

I find QWERTY keyboards faster to navigate than alphabetical ones. QWERTY keyboards are relatively standardised and the preferred layout for most forms of technology, so I find I don't consciously have to think about letter placement relative to each other. Alphabetical keyboards are not standardised in terms of how many rows or columns they have so letters don't have predictable locations and it takes a conscious effort to find them.

I didn't type my OP very well.
What I meant is that it must be possible to have 2 keyboard layouts on the screen at the same time, or a selector button to change the keyboard to the most suitable one for the user.
Even if only 3/10 people are quicker using an ABCDE etc layout and have the oppertunity to use it, it would speed up the queue at the machines.

 

[Taunton]

At the risk of causing offense, I suspect this may be a generational preference.

I am from the generation you have risked causing offence to , and have spent my career with Qwerty. It's designed for two hand, multi-finger operation. You will notice on station TVMs people, from the stance they have, are most commonly using one finger - if nothing else they are holding the reference number being entered in the other hand. I've never seen anyone (including myself) able to enter a text string on them at anything like Qwerty speed, the majority can be seen hunting for the keys.

 

[Hadders]

Given that smartphones use QWERTY I'd have thought it would be best to keep QWERTY for ticket machines, or anything else requiring keyboard input.

 

[trainophile]

I've noticed in many (but not all) places the keyboard has a proportion of greyed out letters and numerals, so you just "see" the ones you need to select for your collection. I've often wondered whether this relates to your payment card when you insert it, or whether it's the same for all collections and only shows the letters and numerals that are allocated to collection references that are issued.

It does speed up collection a bit even in a qwerty layout as only available digits are displayed. Incidentally I wonder why some letters/numbers are never used - I can understand 1 being possibly confused with L but I don't think I've ever seen A on a collection reference.

 

[brad465]

I find the biggest problem is touch sensitivity (not sensitive enough), not the actual keyboard layout.

 

[Watershed]

I've noticed in many (but not all) places the keyboard has a proportion of greyed out letters and numerals, so you just "see" the ones you need to select for your collection. I've often wondered whether this relates to your payment card when you insert it, or whether it's the same for all collections and only shows the letters and numerals that are allocated to collection references that are issued.

It does speed up collection a bit even in a qwerty layout as only available digits are displayed. Incidentally I wonder why some letters/numbers are never used - I can understand 1 being possibly confused with L but I don't think I've ever seen A on a collection reference.

It's to do with the letters that are permitted in a collection reference. TVMs don't search by card number first

 

[yorkie]

I tend to buy tickets from home and collect them at the station.
The ticket machines have on-screen Querty Keyboards which makes entering the collection number a much longer process that it has to be.
There is often a queue and you can see that some people struggle to find where the letters are, particularly as the display is much lower than your eye level.
As you can only enter one digit at at time why are the letters not listed as ABCDEFG etc.

The Querty keyboard was designed so that you can use all your fingers and thumbs to type quickly. The frequently used letters are seperated from each other.
It is not very useful or practical for entering a long alpha-numeric number, one letter at a time.

Everyone who is familiar with using any form of computer / electronic device will be familiar with a Qwerty keyboard.

I therefore disagree with the premise of your post; alphabetical keyboards are harder to use.

This is becoming a moot point anyway as we move away from old style paper tickets, and towards e-tickets.

I guess you are in Greater Anglia territory; GA are one of the later adopters of e-tickets so I expect those queues to drastically reduce shortly.

 

[trainophile]

It's to do with the letters that are permitted in a collection reference. TVMs don't search by card number first

Thanks, that's solved that one then. However I don't know why 5 is permitted when it can be confused with S if you've handwritten your slip of paper, nor 8 and B.

 

[lookapigeon]

I collected tickets yesterday from the machine and had no problems with using the QWERTY keyboard on the screen.

Years ago SWR installed film over the top of the screens that made the key presses difficult and you had to jab at the onscreen keys quite hard.

For most (if not all) people who will have used a keyboard of some sort (whether it be on the computer, phone, typewriter) will be used to the format.

The printing speed of SWR S&B machines is still tragic though regardless.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I find the biggest problem is touch sensitivity (not sensitive enough), not the actual keyboard layout.

Agreed - I can be merrily typing in the reference to find out the first press hasn't registered.

 

[brad465]

Agreed - I can be merrily typing in the reference to find out the first press hasn't registered.

And there's a model of GWR ticket machines (it's not the classic ticket machine style) which actually have a cursor on the screen that are really hard to use, to the point that even selecting a popular destination to buy there and then is a challenge, let alone typing on a keyboard of any style.

 

[Wallsendmag]

An alphabetical keyboard is one of the worst ideas Ive heard, far more people are familiar with the qwerty keybiard than aren’t. I’m pretty sure that this won’t be taken forward after all ToD has a finite life.

 

[3rd rail land]

The ticket machines at Elizabeth Line stations gives the QWERTY as default but you can switch it to ABCDE if preferred.

It shows that it is possible to have both but I couldn't imagine typing in anything other than QWERTY.

I didn't realise any TVMs offered both options. So long as the user is familiar enough with ABCDEF and the switch between the keyboard types is no more than about 3 seconds I suppose it could actually be quicker. This must apply to a minority of people so not worth TOCs modifying their TVMs to incorporate this.

 

[Norfolk25]

Everyone who is familiar with using any form of computer / electronic device will be familiar with a Qwerty keyboard.

I therefore disagree with the premise of your post; alphabetical keyboards are harder to use.

This is becoming a moot point anyway as we move away from old style paper tickets, and towards e-tickets.

I guess you are in Greater Anglia territory; GA are one of the later adopters of e-tickets so I expect those queues to drastically reduce shortly.

Thank you for everyone who has written in.
I am very familiar with a Querty keyboard and I am a very fast typist on a Querty keyboard.
I worked in an office from 1983 until 2020 using desktops/laptops. It is not an old/young thing as I would imagine older people are a lot more familiar with the Querty layout.
I do not see how an alphabetical keyboard is more difficult. We learn the the alphabet at a very young age and we all know the order of the letters.

The vertical screen ticket machine I use sometimes at Kings Lynn is at higher waist height. It is very commendably designed to be used by wheelchair users but it is difficult for others. You think you are pressing one button only to find you are actually pressing another button above or below. It is a slow process.
It may be there is a different keypad option on the machine but Querty is the default - I haven't noticed an option it but I will have a closer look next time.
As Taunton said upthread Querty is designed for two hand, multi-finger operation. People hold the reference number in one hand and enter the number with the other hand. It is a slow process for a lot of people. I also have never seen anyone able to enter a text string on them at anything like Qwerty speed. Most users look for the keys and use one finger.
TFN said upthread the ticket machines at Elizabeth Line stations gives the QWERTY as default but you can switch it to ABCDE if preferred. This is surely something that should be available everywhere.

I am not saying that the Querty keypad should be changed, but it would be sensible to have the ABCDE etc option as well.
We need to cater for everybody. No-one wants to queue and wait whilst someone is struggling over the keys.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

Agreed. As to the generational thing, bear in mind that most office workers have been using keyboards since the 1980s at least so there are plenty of over 60s familiar with qwerty.

And before that we were using typewriters.........

 

[jupiter]

There are some backward looking car park ticket machines in the centre of Dorchester that use an ABC keyboard to enter your reg no (as well as only accepting cash not contactless) that are surprisingly much more difficult to use.

 

[RPM]

The alphabetic keyboard on APTIS was the bane of my life back in the day.

 

[alxndr]

I worked in an office from 1983 until 2020 using desktops/laptops. It is not an old/young thing as I would imagine older people are a lot more familiar with the Querty layout.
I do not see how an alphabetical keyboard is more difficult. We learn the the alphabet at a very young age and we all know the order of the letters.

Some older people are, but some aren't. I know many people 40+ who use the one fingered hunt-and-peck method of typing on any keyboard, I've never seen anyone younger do the same even if they don't do proper touch typing.
With an alphabetical keyboard with no consistency in the layout everyone is reduced to hunting and searching along the rows.

As Taunton said upthread Querty is designed for two hand, multi-finger operation. People hold the reference number in one hand and enter the number with the other hand. It is a slow process for a lot of people. I also have never seen anyone able to enter a text string on them at anything like Qwerty speed. Most users look for the keys and use one finger.

I use one finger on large QWERTY touchscreens but I'm still far quicker like that than I am on an alphabetic keyboard. The delay tends to be in the general unresponsiveness of the screen rather than searching for the letters. My finger arrives at the next letter needed promptly, but then takes a couple of seconds of jabbing at it to get it to register. On an iPad with one finger (with a responsive screen) it's not touchtyping fast, but it's not painfully slow either.

TFN said upthread the ticket machines at Elizabeth Line stations gives the QWERTY as default but you can switch it to ABCDE if preferred. This is surely something that should be available everywhere.

I am not saying that the Querty keypad should be changed, but it would be sensible to have the ABCDE etc option as well.
We need to cater for everybody. No-one wants to queue and wait whilst someone is struggling over the keys.

Agreed, options are good. I wonder how many people would notice that there is such an option, or would understand what it did though, especially those less confident in using technology (who might stand to benefit from it the most).

 

[Ediswan]

With an alphabetical keyboard with no consistency in the layout everyone is reduced to hunting and searching along the rows.

That is a big part of the problem. I found pictures of alphabetic layouts with the letters spread across 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7 rows (not all TVMs). 4 rows is probably out there somewhere.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Thank you for everyone who has written in.
I am very familiar with a Querty keyboard and I am a very fast typist on a Querty keyboard.
I worked in an office from 1983 until 2020 using desktops/laptops. It is not an old/young thing as I would imagine older people are a lot more familiar with the Querty layout.

Querty

 

[Haywain]

Querty

Or possibly Qwerty.

 

[etr221]

The Querty keyboard was designed so that you can use all your fingers and thumbs to type quickly. The frequently used letters are seperated from each other.
It is not very useful or practical for entering a long alpha-numeric number, one letter at a time.

No - the Qwerty layout was originally designed to keep typing speed down, and improve the reliability of the first generation mechanical typewriters it was designed for...

I believe the fastest keyboard design is the 'Turkish F' layout (as long as you're typing Turkish).

But any serious typist achieves speed by knowing their keyboard (including layout - whatever it is), and being able to use all their fingers & thumbs without looking...

A situation that doesn't really apply on ticket machines, which aren't really designed for quick typing, whatever the layout.

 

[zero]

Personally I like the Colemak layout but then problem is you need to know QWERTY anyway in order to type on computers where you can't change the layout.

I once used a machine which only had navigational buttons meaning that to enter a word, you had to scroll through every individual letter starting from A.

 

[dosxuk]

I do not see how an alphabetical keyboard is more difficult. We learn the the alphabet at a very young age and we all know the order of the letters.

We may know the order of the letters, but we don't know where they are located on the virtual keyboard, as there are no standards. Is M at the end of a line on the right, or at the start of a line on the left, or even in the middle? You have no idea until you start trying to find that letter.

On the other hand, virtually everyone knows that M is on the bottom row, towards the middle of a Qwerty keyboard - they may still need to check to see exactly which key, but they're looking in the rough area to start. Even those who don't know are a very small fraction of the users, and when compared to an alphabetical layout, where 100% of users will need to search out the letters, they will be just as slow on that layout too.