Tickets Issued Onboard

[WestCoast]

I often use a station with no ticket purchasing facilities, so this means I have to purchase a ticket from the guard.

Now, I have noticed three interesting things about the Avantix Mobile onboard machines:

-They have a tendency to print tickets with the text at an angle (although it's always clear).
-They print tickets attached together in the machine roll. This is quite handy for me becuase it means I can keep all the tickets together!

-However, they will not accept my Visa Debit card, despite all leaflets saying that they will, plus the card is also processed succesfully at station TVMs and ticket offices. One guard reckoned this is becuase the machine thinks it is a Visa Electron card (not accepted), even though it is not.

Any thoughts?

 

[Zoe]

One guard reckoned this is becuase the machine thinks it is a Visa Electron card (not accepted), even though it is not.

There are two types of Visa Debit card, one is for electronic use only, this is now used by some banks instead of Visa Electron. If the machine the guard uses does not have a direct link to the bank then there will be no way of confirming funds are available and so that can't can't be accepted. Are your card numbers embossed on the card? If they are only printed and not embossed then it will most likely be an electronic use only card.

 

[WestCoast]

There are two types of Visa Debit card, one is for electronic use only, this is now used by some banks instead of Visa Electron. If the machine the guard uses does not have a direct link to the bank then there will be no way of confirming funds are available and so that can't can't be accepted. Are your card numbers embossed on the card? If they are only printed and not embossed then it will most likely be an electronic use only card.

I think you've solved it, it's an electronic use only card! I am guessing the machine the guard uses is for offline transactions.

Electron Cards are electronic use only, hence the "electron".

I wonder how feasible an online card terminal would be? Or is that not possible?

 

[wintonian]

There are two types of Visa Debit card, one is for electronic use only, this is now used by some banks instead of Visa Electron. If the machine the guard uses does not have a direct link to the bank then there will be no way of confirming funds are available and so that can't can't be accepted. Are your card numbers embossed on the card? If they are only printed and not embossed then it will most likely be an electronic use only card.

Apparently this also includes green Lloyd’s cards, I have one on a full current account with a cheque guarantee hologram and it's not accepted for offline transactions.

 

[Zoe]

I should add that it would be possible for a bank to allow a floor limit (maximum for offline transactions) even with an electronic use only card but this would need to be agreed by the TOC and the bank.

 

[FGWman]

Yes this is a con on the part of the banks. They have withdrawn electron cards are replaced them with debit cards. But then if the bank dont trust the customer not to go overdrawn they put a marker on the card for no offline transactions. As all Advantix machines only work offline it means your card gets declined. You need to speak to your bank to see if you are now sufficiently trustworthy to have the online only marker removed.

I can usually tell when a card is going to be declined. Most young peoples cards in my experience seem to be maked as no offline transactions. Its particularly annoying when they show you a receipt for something they have just purchased for about £50 and the card declines for a £2.50 ticket.

When Lloyds introduced the green debit card a few years ago they would always decline. I find these days most of them work so if you find yours still doesnt work maybe you could give your bank a call and see if they will change it to allow offline transactions.

 

[WestCoast]

I can usually tell when a card is going to be declined. Most young peoples cards in my experience seem to be maked as no offline transactions. Its particularly annoying when they show you a receipt for something they have just purchased for about £50 and the card declines for a £2.50 ticket.

That makes sense. My card will probably be marked as no offline transactions, as it is a student account.

I wonder if the railways would ever think of investing in this type of technology, these terminals use the mobile GPRS network to verify transactions.

http://www.fsb.org.uk/benefits/card-payment

I suppose the issues are cost and whether a signal can be gained (shouldn't be too much of an issue in most areas, but on more rural routes it could be a problem).

 

[Zoe]

I wonder if the railways would ever think of investing in this type of technology...

The need for this could be negated by smart card technology though.

 

[WestCoast]

The need for this could be negated by smart card technology though.

Yes, it could well be, but looking ahead I have to wonder how smart cards will work with stations that cannot justify the top-up/ticket loading facilities. Even in 20/30 years, I don't think it is reasonable to expect everything to be done online.

 

[island]

This comes up from time to time. All/most Lloyds green Visa debit cards are marked for no offline transactions. With other banks it varies depending on whether the bank thinks you're going to do anything daft.

One thing that is pretty consistent is that cards with the numbers printed on (rather than embossed and raised) will not work on train.

Guards can phone in to authorize payments on cards that don't go through for this reason but it's apparently a pain and time-consuming, so it will generally only be done if the customer has no other means of payment.

 

[causton]

This comes up from time to time. All/most Lloyds green Visa debit cards are marked for no offline transactions. With other banks it varies depending on whether the bank thinks you're going to do anything daft.

One thing that is pretty consistent is that cards with the numbers printed on (rather than embossed and raised) will not work on train.

Guards can phone in to authorize payments on cards that don't go through for this reason but it's apparently a pain and time-consuming, so it will generally only be done if the customer has no other means of payment.

Yes, we do this at work if a card doesn't have a chip. You have to work out the type of transaction (usually 'Standard authorisation'), speak the card number, the system never recognises it, key in the card number, okay, key in the amount to pay, then you wait on hold for about 3 minutes while they decide. 3/4 of the time it's approved, 1/4 someone from the issuing bank asks to speak to the cardholder to verify details. Not hard, but annoying in a shop with a queue of 10 people waiting behind. Must be even more annoying on a train with 100 people waiting behind!

 

[island]

Yes, we do this at work if a card doesn't have a chip.

You shouldn't have to. You should be able to swipe it and authorize automatically in the normal way.

 

[wintonian]

We do have a very knowligable person on this sort of thing on the forum, unfortunately I can,t remember their user name, but hopefully they may post here to give an explination.

 

[island]

I'd like to think it's me I work for one of the big five banks.

I have a thingamebob (not acquired in connection with my job) that I can use to read a debit card and determine whether it's been restricted from offline use. It also has... less legitimate uses, so I am not in the habit of taking it around with me

 

[WestCoast]

I'd like to think it's me I work for one of the big five banks.

I hope it's not the one named after a city. Anyway, what do you think about the feasability of using the GPRS mobile card terminals on trains? Do they work well?

 

[island]

I hope it's not the one named after a city. Anyway, what do you think about the feasability of using the GPRS mobile card terminals on trains? Do they work well?

It isn't

GPRS terminals work fine as long as there's phone coverage. In tunnels and out in the sticks they are less effective. What you could theoretically do is create a terminal that will connect via GPRS if it has reception and fall back to processing offline. However, you would have to replace every Avantix mobile unit in the country, which is quite a cost

 

[CarterUSM]

It isn't

GPRS terminals work fine as long as there's phone coverage. In tunnels and out in the sticks they are less effective. What you could theoretically do is create a terminal that will connect via GPRS if it has reception and fall back to processing offline. However, you would have to replace every Avantix mobile unit in the country, which is quite a cost

I've noticed the Thyrons have a small space for a sim card inside, I suppose this is for GPRS coverage?

 

[185]

Time for conductor to call Barclays Merchant Services... they can issue an auth code if it's fine. Or £50 prize if it's a stolen one

 

[island]

I've noticed the Thyrons have a small space for a sim card inside, I suppose this is for GPRS coverage?

Haven't seen one but it's likely. The Gemalto and Verifone pinpads probably don't have anything though.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I should add that it would be possible for a bank to allow a floor limit (maximum for offline transactions) even with an electronic use only card but this would need to be agreed by the TOC and the bank.

That wouldn't work in reality though. One of my family members has an Electron card, he was worried about going overdrawn as he wouldn't often be able to afford the bank charges. He was assured he could not go overdrawn (this is a lie). If a floor limit were applied I think it would be incredibly easy to go overdrawn or have the transaction reversed (or whatever the correct term is).

 

[island]

Lloyds does have an add-on called Control which for £10 a month guarantees no further bank charges.

 

[reb0118]

I've noticed the Thyrons have a small space for a sim card inside, I suppose this is for GPRS coverage?

Have you tried putting your sim from the works mobile in to see what happens?

Then you can report back here to inform us all what happens.

You'll note that I'm not brave enough to try myself.

 

[scotsman]

I have a green Lloyds card (YP account) and it always gets declined by 'the brick', but always went through when swiped - this led to me going overdrawn by tiny amounts (there's rarely very much in that account, it's just for day to day stuff) because the transaction went ahead when I didn't have the funds. Que threatening letters from the bank, "we will not charge you this time" - or next time! (The account was advertised as "impossible" for me to go overdrawn)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....(The account was advertised as "impossible" for me to go overdrawn)

In theory, you can't (because it is supposed to be a live transaction), but from experience, I can say that is a lie, or atleast, not the whole truth.

I'm sure you've heard of the cash machines that charge you for drawing cash out, right?

Lets say I have £31.10p in my account, I want to draw out £30 and the cash machine openly says it charges £1.85p for a cash withdrawl. You'd naturally expect the bank to say "he doesn't have £31.85p!". You'd be wrong.

The cash machine verifies that you have £30 in your account, gives you the money, notifies the bank of the withdrawl and the £1.85 charge. The bank then tells you that you have gone overdrawn by 75p.

 

[barrykas]

Time for conductor to call Barclays Merchant Services... they can issue an auth code if it's fine. Or £50 prize if it's a stolen one

If you're still calling BMS you're doing it wrong... It's been HSBC for a while now, though the internal phone number's still the same.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[island]

I have a green Lloyds card (YP account) and it always gets declined by 'the brick', but always went through when swiped - this led to me going overdrawn by tiny amounts (there's rarely very much in that account, it's just for day to day stuff) because the transaction went ahead when I didn't have the funds. Que threatening letters from the bank, "we will not charge you this time" - or next time! (The account was advertised as "impossible" for me to go overdrawn)

They aren't meant to swipe chipped cards, and Lloyds can reclaim the full amount of the transaction from the TOC if they do.

 

[WestCoast]

They aren't meant to swipe chipped cards, and Lloyds can reclaim the full amount of the transaction from the TOC if they do.

Haven't there been a few scams involving this in recent years?

 

[Pumbaa]

One notable gent in the Manchester area used to buy weekly ALRs I seem to remember. The guards saw commission and swiped it through, it never got cleared and it didn't take them very long to put a stop to it!

 

[island]

Haven't there been a few scams involving this in recent years?

Perhaps, but it really isn't difficult to conform with "don't swipe a chipped card"!

 

[causton]

Unless you get the six digit authorisation code from the card issuer! :P

(At my work it's 6 digits at least, but looking at a receipt from another shop it is only 5 digits. Fair enough!)