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Tickets - Is possession of them theft ?

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Mutant Lemming

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Unlike your till receipts a train ticket appears to be the 'property of the railways' in perpetuity. Does this mean that technically, possession of train tickets after the journey has been made is tantamount to theft ?

With recycling a big thing these days there is a potential for rail companies to recycle the tickets which , after all, are their property.
 
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If you refused to deliver them up when requested then it would become a criminal offence.
You can "mind" them until requested to give them back. Reality is that a lot of people will never be asked to return them.
 

tony_mac

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If you refused to deliver them up when requested then it would become a criminal offence.

What offence do you think that is?

The Conditions of Carriage make it clear that there are only certain circumstances in which a ticket can be withdrawn.
It must be handed over 'for inspection', not to be retained.

Ownership does not automatically overrule a right of possession.
 

Mutant Lemming

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With card and paper recycling bringing in a few bob to medium sized firms just wonder what a pan network recycling of used tickets could bring in.
(I understand that it would not make someone who had especially bought that single from March to Battle very happy but we all have to look at the big picture these days).
 

SS4

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Can't see it although I know next to nothing about the laws regarding tickets. What would happen if your destination was unstaffed and unbarriered? Sometimes the guards at BHM do take used tickets though
 

First class

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What offence do you think that is?

The Conditions of Carriage make it clear that there are only certain circumstances in which a ticket can be withdrawn.
It must be handed over 'for inspection', not to be retained.

Ownership does not automatically overrule a right of possession.

Section 5(1) Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

1)Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F1level 1 on the standard scale][F2[F3level 2 on the standard scale]]

Produce being show a ticket for inspection
Deliver up being the ticket being returned to the Railway
 

tony_mac

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It's only a theoretical argument anyway. Only a complete pedant would say 'we own that used ticket and we want it back'.

(It's also only theft if possession is retained dishonestly)
 

142094

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The ticket remains the property of the railways, which is why some ticket gate staff are reluctant to give them back in the event of a delay.

Would be an interesting case if a local authority was to prosecute a railway company where tickets had been left by passengers as litter. After all they are the still the property of the railways so they could be forced to clean them up :)
 

Old Timer

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Unlike your till receipts a train ticket appears to be the 'property of the railways' in perpetuity. Does this mean that technically, possession of train tickets after the journey has been made is tantamount to theft ?

With recycling a big thing these days there is a potential for rail companies to recycle the tickets which , after all, are their property.
Legally the railway ticket remains the property of the Railway.

It is purely provided for the purposes of demonstrating that there is a contract for carriage between the passenger and the Railway. It also discharges the obligation of the passenger within S5 of the 1889 Act to demonstrate that they have paid for their journey.

The national Conditions of Carriage (clause 1) make it clear that the ticket remains the property of the Railway, thus it can be legally withdrawn or claimed back at any time.

In practice the Railway do not normally request the return of the ticket. Until it does the passenger has possession (but never ownership) of it.

The ownership of the ticket remains with the Railway in perpetuity and technically it could ask for it back at any time in the future. This does make it perfectly legal for an RPI to recover used tickets from a passenger well after they have expired, and indeed historically has enabled the demonstration of fare evasion.

We all know however that in practice the tickets are never recovered except through ticket gates.

Years ago all withdrawn tickets were sent to Crewe where they were inspected and random checks were made. These occasionally resulted in investigations being undertaken into fraud and theft.
 

tony_mac

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ok, they can give their name and address instead!.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The national Conditions of Carriage (clause 1) make it clear that the ticket remains the property of the Railway, thus it can be legally withdrawn or claimed back at any time.
That is not an automatic implication of ownership, and the conditions certainly imply otherwise.

It would, of course, be madness if that was literally true - they could sell you a ticket, then just take it off you and not return it.
 
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Old Timer

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The ticket remains the property of the railways, which is why some ticket gate staff are reluctant to give them back in the event of a delay.

Would be an interesting case if a local authority was to prosecute a railway company where tickets had been left by passengers as litter. After all they are the still the property of the railways so they could be forced to clean them up :)
Whilst a pasenger has a ticket the responsibility rests with the passenger.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
ok, they can give their name and address instead!.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That is not an automatic implication of ownership, and the conditions certainly imply otherwise.

It would, of course, be madness if that was literally true - they could sell you a ticket, then just take it off you and not return it.
I am sorry but you are wrong as several post have already shown you the relevant legislation.

This situation is no different to a driving licence or indeed a Pilots Licence.
 

Mutant Lemming

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In this day and age of recycling used tickets DO have a value which is seldom exploited. What happens to tickets captured in automatic barriers, are they recycled ? If someone were to set up a private enterprise and collected tickets from around the network with the express purpose of repulping them who (in our fractious rail network) would turn round and dispute 'ownership' ?
 

Old Timer

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In this day and age of recycling used tickets DO have a value which is seldom exploited. What happens to tickets captured in automatic barriers, are they recycled ? If someone were to set up a private enterprise and collected tickets from around the network with the express purpose of repulping them who (in our fractious rail network) would turn round and dispute 'ownership' ?
I doubt that anyone would as there is no monetary value to the TOC - the costs of recovery would far exceed any benefit, especially as recycling Companies actually charge for collection.

BR used to collect them so as to reduce the risk of misuse and also to carry out audit checks, but these ceased sometime in the late 1970s.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The ownership of the ticket remains with the Railway in perpetuity and technically it could ask for it back at any time in the future.

Given the fact that the name and address are never given to the TOC in the vast majority of cases of the purchase of rail travel tickets, how would they be able to trace the purchaser in the indefinate period following the transaction, in the case of the technicality you cite?

We are talking in legal terms here. Is there a legal responsibility for a purchaser of rail travel tickets to supply their name and address at the time of ticket purchase. If so, what part of railway law does this come under?
 

tony_mac

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I am sorry but you are wrong as several post have already shown you the relevant legislation.

I must be struggling,as I can't see it. The RoR act is satisfied by giving your name and address.

The CoC say that you must hand it over 'for inspection' only, and that it may only be withdrawn 'If you do not comply in a material way with any Condition'.

So, if you do comply, they have tacitly agreed that you may keep possession of the ticket.
 

Old Timer

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Given the fact that the name and address are never given to the TOC in the vast majority of cases of the purchase of rail travel tickets, how would they be able to trace the purchaser in the indefinate period following the transaction, in the case of the technicality you cite?

We are talking in legal terms here. Is there a legal responsibility for a purchaser of rail travel tickets to supply their name and address at the time of ticket purchase. If so, what part of railway law does this come under?
We are discussing the technical points of legal ownership not the logistical.

This is at risk of becoming one of those debates akin to how many angels fit on the tip of a needle !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I must be struggling,as I can't see it. The RoR act is satisfied by giving your name and address.

The CoC say that you must hand it over 'for inspection' only, and that it may only be withdrawn 'If you do not comply in a material way with any Condition'.

So, if you do comply, they have tacitly agreed that you may keep possession of the ticket.
The RoR Act requires a passenger to produce evidence that they have paid the correct fare for the journey. This is discharged by producing the railway ticket. This is the part within the NCoC.

The NCoC need to allow for a situation where a ticket has to be withdrawn because there is fraudulent use or attempted fare evasion.

It is necessary that the Railway retains the right to recover a ticket on completion of a journey, or indeed before a journey was to commence and in order to do so it is necessary that the Railway retains ownership of it.

Legally there can be no transfer of a ticket as technically it has no monetary value but simply is the replacement for the formal contract for carriage between the Railway and the passenger.

However as I posted a short while ago there is no logical place for this debate to go. The Railway could re-instate the collection of tickets at destination if it wanted but until and unless the TOCs have little or no interest in what happens to their tickets these days.
 

tony_mac

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However as I posted a short while ago there is no logical place for this debate to go.
No, not really, it's all a bit pointless, but it's a way of avoiding real work for a few minutes.....

It is necessary that the Railway retains the right to recover a ticket on completion of a journey, or indeed before a journey was to commence

I am not quite sure what you mean, as I assume you are not implying that the railway can sell tickets then just take them back again. (And the CoC implies, quite reasonably, that this isn't the case)

Assuming that this obviously isn't the case, I can't see anything in the CoC etc. that treats an unused, or partially used, ticket any differently to a completely used one.
 

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No, not really, it's all a bit pointless, but it's a way of avoiding real work for a few minutes.....



I am not quite sure what you mean, as I assume you are not implying that the railway can sell tickets then just take them back again. (And the CoC implies, quite reasonably, that this isn't the case)

Assuming that this obviously isn't the case, I can't see anything in the CoC etc. that treats an unused, or partially used, ticket any differently to a completely used one.
A ticket can be withdrawn for a variety of reasons whilst being used or before being used. For example if a person acts in a manner that breaks the Byelaws, they can be removed from the Railway and their ticket withdrawn, even though they have not committed a travel offence.

As I keep saying the ticket is evidence of a contract under the 1889 Act. That Contract can be terminated at any time should the terms and conditions be broken by the passenger. The terms and conditions include compliance with the relevant Byelaws.

There is no comparison to consumer law as there is no transfer of property ownership or beneficial rights. The ticket merely providesd evidence of the contract to passage from origin to destination.
 

bnm

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You can "mind" them until requested to give them back. Reality is that a lot of people will never be asked to return them.

I'm currently 'minding' 587 common stock tickets!

I've discounted all the seat reservations, collection receipts and card transaction receipts. Are they mine to keep?
 
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tony_mac

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A ticket can be withdrawn for a variety of reasons whilst being used or before being used. For example if a person acts in a manner that breaks the Byelaws, they can be removed from the Railway and their ticket withdrawn, even though they have not committed a travel offence.

As I keep saying the ticket is evidence of a contract under the 1889 Act. That Contract can be terminated at any time should the terms and conditions be broken by the passenger. The terms and conditions include compliance with the relevant Byelaws.

The question wasn't about breaking byelaws - I even pointed out that failure to obey the conditions was given as the (only) reason for withdrawing a ticket.

The question was about withdrawing a ticket when the conditions and byelaws are not broken.
Can unused and valid tickets be withdraw without any breach by the passnger?
If not, is there any written reason this does not apply to used tickets?
 

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I really am struggling here to understand the reasoning for the question.

There is not normally a reason why the Railway should wish to withdraw a ticket from a passenger prior to travel, when that passenger is not in breach of any rules.

Normally the passenger wishes to travel and the Railway wish them to do so.

The term "withdrawal" however is perhaps a misleading term to use in the way that the term is used in normal everyday language. Maybe "recovered" might be a better and less "legalistic" phrase to use because it seems to raise connotations which are not intended.

The only normal reasons why a ticket might be recovered prior to use is when a passenger decides that they no longer wish to travel and opt for a refund, or it is discovered that an incorrect or invalid ticket has been sold.

The one reason I could foresee is when a passenger buys a ticket from a tout or another passenger for example. Remember it is illegal to re-sell or transfer a ticket to another person, unless the ticket has been expressly bought for that person.

An example.

A person regularly purchases reduced rate tickets, and later sells them to people wishing to travel, inside the period when for example they may not be on sale. It those cases then tickets can be withdrawn, albeit we are back to a breach of the CoC.

In the event that a person was found with tickets to sell in such a case then all other unused tickets would be withdrawn, even though they had not been offered for sale.
 

Zoe

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I had a lot of old tickets taken off me once at Taunton so it shows that it can and is done.
 

tony_mac

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I really am struggling here to understand the reasoning for the question.

It's not a major issue, but it is primarily because some people need to keep tickets to claim expenses or for delay claims.

Rarely, some unhelpful members of staff will refuse, citing 'ownership' of the ticket, and even claim it is a criminal offence for you to keep them. (See post 2).

So, I am just trying to clarify; I have not seen any solid evidence that, where the passenger has not broken any conditions / byelaws etc., a rail employee has a right to take their ticket away and refuse to return it.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Unlike your till receipts a train ticket appears to be the 'property of the railways' in perpetuity. Does this mean that technically, possession of train tickets after the journey has been made is tantamount to theft ?
Of course not!
As others have said, 'theft' requires the Dishonesty of the person taking the property and Section 2 of the Theft Act provides some help in defining instances where Dishonesty is NOT to be assumed (e.g. "if he appropriates the property in the belief that he would have the other’s consent "); this requires some demonstration that the previous owner is unwilling for posession to be passed to the subsequent person (usually they simply demonstrate that lack of intention by simply seeking the return of the property!).
But the ownership of discarded property can be quite unclear. In England & Wales, it is hard to give up ownership of something as long as someone can be said to be in control of the item(s), [Woodman (1974)]. Even property left in the street in a bin bag for collection bythe Local Authority is still the property, or is in the control of, the owner, until it is physically picked up by that collection as intended by the owner (or person in control).

In Scotland, discarded property can and does effectively become the State's responsibility (The Theft Act applies but so does Scots Common Law!).
The ownership of the ticket remains with the Railway in perpetuity and technically it could ask for it back at any time in the future.
Until, that is, the legal owner in the form of a Railway Company in England or Wales transfers it to a recycling/ waste/ shredding contractor or authority or other persons.

As the Railway Company has allowed the passenger to be in control of the ticket, and after the completion of its intended use (by both parties), and without any further request or action by the Railway Company, the passenger would be quite entitled to destroy it or to transfer it to someone else for destruction/ recycling etc (as long as it was not a Dishonest transfer).

The Courts have not been very sympathetic to claims of theft of (apparently) discarded property. The notorious Benjamin Pell collected thousands of documents from the bins of London Law firms and laid them out to dry in the front garden for every passing commuter to see and he did so for years on end. The more scandalous of these documents were sold to the press for a handsome price and led to a variety of revelations involving popular and important people resulting in huge claims of libel; eventually he was prosecuted and fined, IIRC, £10.
 
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You can ask for a receipt when buying tickets, and when I buy my season ticket they always give me one. So this caters for expense claims and could be used I presume to claim for delays as well.

To be honest I think the initial point seemed to be getting at recycling old tickets as a TOC revenue stream. I would have thought that the railway would be looking for some form of smart card system going ahead to reduce the costs of issuing tickets. Think about the oystercard system! Book you tickets on line or over the phone and your smart card is automatically credited no postal costs or ticket pick up from the station!
 

tony_mac

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So this caters for expense claims and could be used I presume to claim for delays as well.
Not usually, in my experience; a receipt shows that you bought a ticket, not that you travelled - it could easily have been refunded afterwards.
 

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....The question was about withdrawing a ticket when the conditions and byelaws are not broken.
Can unused and valid tickets be withdraw without any breach by the passnger?
If not, is there any written reason this does not apply to used tickets?
The simple answer is that the NCoC clearly states that the railway ticket remains the property of the Railway and thus the Railway as the owner can request it to be returned at any time.

Your question fails because there is no identifiable situation whereby a person buys a ticket and the Railway then requires it to be returned, other than with the joint agreement of both, in situations where there has been no breach of the NCoC or the Byelaws.

If it is necessary for a passenger to provide evidence that they have purchased a ticket, then they should request a receipt - as do most people who need to claim for travel expenses. A transaction receipt as opposed to a formal "receipt" is always supplied in my experience where a card or other non cash payment is made.
 

Old Timer

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It's not a major issue, but it is primarily because some people need to keep tickets to claim expenses or for delay claims...
HMRC do NOT require used railway tickets to be kept as "proof" of purchase or travel. Their website gives very clear guidance on this. Whilst an Employer may for their own purposes require an employee to provide the tickets, there is no legal basis for them to demand the ticket as the ticket is not their property. Their requirements for tickets boils down to either the bureacracy they enforce because at bottom line they do not trust their employees or because the person demanding tickets is simply "arse-covering" or is not familiar with the requirements of HMRC in respect of record keeping - which in itself says much that is worrying.

...Rarely, some unhelpful members of staff will refuse, citing 'ownership' of the ticket, and even claim it is a criminal offence for you to keep them. (See post 2)..
They are not being unhelpful they are explaining the correct legal position. A refusal to return the ticket is a prima facie demonstration of the "intent to permanently deprive", and this in itself then constitues the test for theft - as DaveNewcastle has already set out.

...So, I am just trying to clarify; I have not seen any solid evidence that, where the passenger has not broken any conditions / byelaws etc., a rail employee has a right to take their ticket away and refuse to return it.
The solid evidence is within Clause 1 of the NCoC which constitute the legal form of Contract between the passenger and the Railway. The NCoC state that the ticket(s) remain the property of the Railway, and by paying for and using the ticket, the passenger is then deemed legally to have accepted these conditions unconditionally.
 
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