Tickets from Sheffield to catch a flight from Gatwick

[Justin Smith]

We have to fly from Gatwick and are weighing up whether to go by car or drive down to the airport from Sheffield.
We can still get an almost reasonable price to go First Class by train (it'd actually still be cheaper by car.....) but have two problems :

1 Unlike Transpeninne (to Manchester Airport) I don't think there's any flexibility on the return journey. So if your flight is delayed you're in the doo doo. Theoretically your ticket is void and you have to pay the full single fare (for two people) ! To be frank when I went to London once and there was a problem on the underground the guard on my train took my word for it and allowed me on anyway, but having to rely on the goodwill of a guard is not something we particularly want to do.
The option to buy a fully flexible ticket is ridiculously expensive, we wouldn't even consider it, so is there any other alternative, or is it yet more traffic on the roads and yet more income lost from the railways ?

2 For some unaccountable reason the East Midlands Trains booking system won't let you buy a ticket via Thameslink (or whatever it's called these days). Instead of a nice easy change at St Pancras, they expect you to use the underground (with all your luggage ! ? ! ) to Victoria and then catch the Gatwick Express. Obviously we wouldn't want to do that. The Trainline does let you catch Thameslink, but, I think, only if you book it as two separate fares.
Why all the complication when the Thamelink journey is obviously so much more convenient ?

 

[Mojo]

2 For some unaccountable reason the East Midlands Trains booking system won't let you buy a ticket via Thameslink (or whatever it's called these days). Instead of a nice easy change at St Pancras, they expect you to use the underground (with all your luggage ! ? ! ) to Victoria and then catch the Gatwick Express. Obviously we wouldn't want to do that. The Trainline does let you catch Thameslink, but, I think, only if you book it as two separate fares.
Why all the complication when the Thamelink journey is obviously so much more convenient ?

Are you booking for an evening or a weekend when the Thameslink route is closed? Having just checked on EMT website for a random journey on Weds, most journeys it offers are via FCC with a few via Victoria onto Gatwick Exp.

 

[Failed Unit]

You can also request to change at Bedford or go via city thameslink (no way you can do that on underground).

I really can't see how car can be cheaper when you consider the car parking charges airports hit you with. Edinburgh is £1 per minute (for drop offs). When the real cost of motoring is supposed to be about 40ppm when all costs are considered emt most be very expensive. (look at going via Doncaster instead).

As for APs and late flights. I think the TOCs look at it as life is hard pay me full fare!

 

[Justin Smith]

Are you booking for an evening or a weekend when the Thameslink route is closed? Having just checked on EMT website for a random journey on Weds, most journeys it offers are via FCC with a few via Victoria onto Gatwick Exp.

Ahh hadn`t thought of that, but the outbound journey would be Saturday aft, and the return Thursday late morning, so I`d have thought it`d be OK ?

 

[MikeWh]

Saturday afternoon the Thameslink route will be closed. Thursday late morning it should be open.

 

[Justin Smith]

You can also request to change at Bedford or go via city thameslink (no way you can do that on underground).

I really can't see how car can be cheaper when you consider the car parking charges airports hit you with. Edinburgh is £1 per minute (for drop offs). When the real cost of motoring is supposed to be about 40ppm when all costs are considered emt most be very expensive. (look at going via Doncaster instead).

As for APs and late flights. I think the TOCs look at it as life is hard pay me full fare!

We`d probably park at a cheaper off airport car park, that`s what we do at Manchester. But I agree with you that car park charges, and inconvenience, should be taken into account. Which is why we`d probably pay up to £170 for us both to travel down First Class, but not more than that, and not at all if there`s all the extra worry about if the plane is late.
We`ve got an old car for which the depreciation is almost non existent, furthermore we have to have a car so you couldn`t count all the fixed costs of ownership, just the marginal extra cost of that journey. Thus when working out the cost of a journey in one of our two old cars, it`s the fuel cost plus about 50% for wear and tear. I don`t think that`s too far out.

 

[Greenback]

How much do you reckon the round trip will cost in fuel, wear and tear, plus parking charges for 6 days? Personally, we would pay more for the train just so as not to have to drive or worry about organising parking (plus will the car be OK there?!)

 

[MCR247]

If you do decide to go by car Purple Parking do very cheap parking

 

[Justin Smith]

How much do you reckon the round trip will cost in fuel, wear and tear, plus parking charges for 6 days? Personally, we would pay more for the train just so as not to have to drive or worry about organising parking (plus will the car be OK there?!)

I reckon about £50 to £60 in fuel, then about £30 to £40 in additional wear and tear on the car.
Parking is extra I accept.
As I said, I, sorry that's we *, would probably pay the quoted £170 (£85 each) to go down First class, which is quite a bit more. But that's a non flexible ticket which would involve too much potential stress in this instance. The flexible fare is ridiculous, using that it would make no economic sense to go by train.

* I still can't understand why the "Friends and Family" railcard requires a child to go. The marginal cost decision (of two people in a car as against the rail fare) makes no odds if it's a child or not ! ? !

 

[mumrar]

I still can't understand why the "Friends and Family" railcard requires a child to go. The marginal cost decision (of two people in a car as against the rail fare) makes no odds if it's a child or not ! ? !

If a child is travelling it would usually be the child or close relative (niece/nephew) of the railcard holder in most cases. If it was possible for two adults to travel, it's far more likely the other adult can come from a large pool of family, colleagues, friends etc. It keeps the benefits closer to what the railcard is aimed at, and named after. For example, you could have football fans who are freinds buying the railcard, travelling in groups without a child, just to get the discount. It would make the discount so widespread as to make the railcard almost pointless.

 

[Failed Unit]

I reckon about £50 to £60 in fuel, then about £30 to £40 in additional wear and tear on the car.
Parking is extra I accept.
As I said, I, sorry that's we *, would probably pay the quoted £170 (£85 each) to go down First class, which is quite a bit more. But that's a non flexible ticket which would involve too much potential stress in this instance. The flexible fare is ridiculous, using that it would make no economic sense to go by train.

* I still can't understand why the "Friends and Family" railcard requires a child to go. The marginal cost decision (of two people in a car as against the rail fare) makes no odds if it's a child or not ! ? !

The clue is in the name of the card. However you are forgetting that even if you beg, borrow or steal the child this card offers no discount in first class anyway!

 

[Justin Smith]

If a child is travelling it would usually be the child or close relative (niece/nephew) of the railcard holder in most cases. If it was possible for two adults to travel, it's far more likely the other adult can come from a large pool of family, colleagues, friends etc. It keeps the benefits closer to what the railcard is aimed at, and named after. For example, you could have football fans who are freinds buying the railcard, travelling in groups without a child, just to get the discount. It would make the discount so widespread as to make the railcard almost pointless.

As far as I'm aware none of the people in the group travelling together have to be related. If one was cynical, as I am, there's probably some politically correct reason for that.
But the real question is what's the point of railcards ?
Are they :
1 A social engineering thing, redistribution of wealth etc
2 A method of the railways maximising revenue by encouraging people to travel by rail who wouldn't otherwise have done so ?
I find it difficult to believe that it's the former, particularly these days with the railways privatised.
But if it's the second reason then it doesn't make any difference why a group of people get together to save money on the rail fares. The fact is that they could probably go by car, and therefore the economics of travelling by rail don't add up for them because it costs the same to get a car from A to B with one person in it as it does with 2, 3, 4 or 5 in it. To a group of adults travelling together even one third off (or whatever you get with a railcard) is relatively small beer compared with splitting the cost of the car journey.
In all seriousness, if the railways want to maximise revenue they should introduce a car owners railcard, because, by definition, a car owner will not usually pay as much to travel by train as a non car owner

 

[tony_mac]

I noticed that in Germany the sell tickets for 1 person, or for a group of up to 5 - presumably to compete with a car load.
I assume that is also the purpose of the groupsave.

Neither of which helps you - it is very rarely cheaper to compare 2 rail tickets to one car journey in this country (unless you drive an expensive car). Especially if you need to be flexible with your times.

You could buy off-peak return tickets and go for a 'weekend first' on the way
down - but that's still expensive compared to driving.

If it's a long-haul flight, I would consider booking a cheap hotel and a cheap advance ticket either a lot later or the next day. But I know many people would probably rather just get home!
And there is no guarantee with airlines that you will even arrive on the correct day.

 

[wintonian]

If the plane is late and you miss you train as a result leaving you to buy new tickets at the ‘walk on fare’, then isn't that covered by most travel insurance policies? I know I won't take out a policy without that sort of cover.

 

[Justin Smith]

I noticed that in Germany the sell tickets for 1 person, or for a group of up to 5 - presumably to compete with a car load.
I assume that is also the purpose of the groupsave.

Neither of which helps you - it is very rarely cheaper to compare 2 rail tickets to one car journey in this country (unless you drive an expensive car). Especially if you need to be flexible with your times.

You could buy off-peak return tickets and go for a 'weekend first' on the way
down - but that's still expensive compared to driving.

If it's a long-haul flight, I would consider booking a cheap hotel and a cheap advance ticket either a lot later or the next day. But I know many people would probably rather just get home!
And there is no guarantee with airlines that you will even arrive on the correct day.

That`s a good idea and we did consider it, but the flight gets in at about 9.00 in the morning ! It would make more sense if the flight got in late afterneen though.

 

[wintonian]

Having had a quick look at the walk on fares it would seem it is cheaper to buy a standard return + weekend first on the way out and excess the return to a first class ticket. But you would still be looking at somewhere in between £150 - £200

Here are the walk on fares if anyone wants to do the maths.

 

[wintonian]

What about booking a domestic flight to Manchester and getting the train from there? Would you be coverd by some EU regulation if you missed the connection flight?

 

[Failed Unit]

TOCs offer discounts for groups. Let me think - group save. East coast have a small group discount. Then we have the large group discount. The network gold and network railcard (you should really focus your attention on these considering that season tickets in other areas don't get discounts - why should the former NSE area get discounts etc).

The family and friends is a good product. In fact it is a lot worse when I used it with £1 child flat fare (or free with railrider voucher). I think people would be happy if the opened it to first class. It never used to be allowed on APs until recently.

 

[tony_mac]

But you would still be looking at somewhere in between £150 - £200

...per person. To excess just the return portion to first would be over £100 each.

 

[wintonian]

If a SSR route: +CITY THAMESLINK is held for example then it would be £101.30 each for the excess if I have worked it out correctly. So rather a lot of cash.

The cheapest would be if a 85.40 route: +ANY PREMITTED was held then the excess would then be £77.60.

 

[richw]

i've booked for parking at Gatwick in March and the cheapest i could get is £47 for 1 week, if that helps with factoring in costs, were travelling with a young child, so with all the extras we need to take for her, car seat, travel cot, push chair, and then suitcases as well between us, the train is a completely inappropriate option, its a 300 mile drive each way for me to Gatwick, of which 298 is either the A30 dual carriageway or motorways, so not too bad, my car averages around 65mpg on motorway crusing at 70mph, so i'm expecting a round trip to cost £50-60 in diesel. the train would of cost us £43.60 in total, with advanced singles available, from Redruth to Gatwick at £10.90 each at the times we'd require, with the return leg advanced singles available at the same price, both of us are YP railcard holders, so considerably cheaper by train, but not practical with the baby and all the stuff the baby brings with her

 

[Greenback]

I reckon about £50 to £60 in fuel, then about £30 to £40 in additional wear and tear on the car.
Parking is extra I accept.
As I said, I, sorry that's we *, would probably pay the quoted £170 (£85 each) to go down First class, which is quite a bit more. But that's a non flexible ticket which would involve too much potential stress in this instance. The flexible fare is ridiculous, using that it would make no economic sense to go by train.

* I still can't understand why the "Friends and Family" railcard requires a child to go. The marginal cost decision (of two people in a car as against the rail fare) makes no odds if it's a child or not ! ? !

Flexible fares are ridiculous in many cases. This is why I keep saying we need a better system!

As far as I'm aware none of the people in the group travelling together have to be related. If one was cynical, as I am, there's probably some politically correct reason for that.
But the real question is what's the point of railcards ?
Are they :
1 A social engineering thing, redistribution of wealth etc
2 A method of the railways maximising revenue by encouraging people to travel by rail who wouldn't otherwise have done so ?

When the old Family Railcard came into being it was definitely the latter. The idea was to compete with the car for family days out.

i've booked for parking at Gatwick in March and the cheapest i could get is £47 for 1 week, if that helps with factoring in costs, were travelling with a young child, so with all the extras we need to take for her, car seat, travel cot, push chair, and then suitcases as well between us, the train is a completely inappropriate option, its a 300 mile drive each way for me to Gatwick, of which 298 is either the A30 dual carriageway or motorways, so not too bad, my car averages around 65mpg on motorway crusing at 70mph, so i'm expecting a round trip to cost £50-60 in diesel. the train would of cost us £43.60 in total, with advanced singles available, from Redruth to Gatwick at £10.90 each at the times we'd require, with the return leg advanced singles available at the same price, both of us are YP railcard holders, so considerably cheaper by train, but not practical with the baby and all the stuff the baby brings with her

That's a good example of how different modes of transport offer different advantages. We always prefer rail where we can justify the extra cost, because we prefer to eat, sleep, read or just enjoy the view ou tof the window, as opposed to enduring the stress and boredom of driving down endless motorways with the resulting levels of conecntration involved.

It also shows how, no matter how cheap tickets are, a sizeable proportion of the population still prefer to drive. Perhaps we should move away from the dirt cheap fares and lessen the differential between the cheapest advances and the off peak tickets? Perhaps there could even be a new name ticket, such as Supersaver?

 

[Justin Smith]

If you do decide to go by car Purple Parking do very cheap parking

We're actually going for 20 nights, and the quote above was £101. Which I have to say isn't too bad.

I noticed that in Germany the sell tickets for 1 person, or for a group of up to 5 - presumably to compete with a car load.
I assume that is also the purpose of the groupsave.

That sounds an eminently sensible thing to do, and a good business proposition as well.

What about booking a domestic flight to Manchester and getting the train from there? Would you be coverd by some EU regulation if you missed the connection flight?

That's a good idea, we have considered it. In the past we always rejected it because it somehow seemed excessive to fly when you could get the train. It doesn't seem so bad when transiting through Paris or Amsterdam !
But if we ever have to fly through Gatwick (or even Heathrow) again we may get the plane down.
I think it's a terrible shame that it's come to that though.
Can you get a plane down to Gatwick though ?

 

[Flying Snail]

You seem to have ignored the most sensible suggestion in the whole thread; get suitable travel insurance that will cover you for new rail tickets in the event of your return flight being delayed. As you are away for over 2 weeks travel insurance would be a good idea anyway.

 

[richw]

That's a good example of how different modes of transport offer different advantages. We always prefer rail where we can justify the extra cost, because we prefer to eat, sleep, read or just enjoy the view ou tof the window, as opposed to enduring the stress and boredom of driving down endless motorways with the resulting levels of conecntration involved.

It also shows how, no matter how cheap tickets are, a sizeable proportion of the population still prefer to drive. Perhaps we should move away from the dirt cheap fares and lessen the differential between the cheapest advances and the off peak tickets? Perhaps there could even be a new name ticket, such as Supersaver?

i'd of jumped at taking the train, but really isnt practical for all the baby stuff,
until she was born, i'd never driven further than Plymouth i dont think (i live in west cornwall between camborne and hayle), always opting to take the train any further distance, i tried it with the baby, and just found it too difficult with all the stuff, so the car is the winner now

 

[WillPS]

Ah Justin, you raise a perfectly valid point about the unfairness of inflexibility and then go and ruin it all by moaning that Friends & Family railcard is for travelling with children.

Perhaps you could write a letter to just about every tourist attraction in the country (which stipulate children in their family tickets) outlining your plight.




Frankly, if you can afford to consider First Class return fares in the region of £170 then I'd say you're exactly the sort of passenger who should be paying the full fare!

 

[wintonian]

To be fair to Justin when he said £170 he was refering to 2 tickets which I dont think is too unreasonable for a return for that distance.

 

[cuccir]

I reckon about £50 to £60 in fuel, then about £30 to £40 in additional wear and tear on the car.
Parking is extra I accept.
As I said, I, sorry that's we *, would probably pay the quoted £170 (£85 each) to go down First class, which is quite a bit more. But that's a non flexible ticket which would involve too much potential stress in this instance. The flexible fare is ridiculous, using that it would make no economic sense to go by train.

* I still can't understand why the "Friends and Family" railcard requires a child to go. The marginal cost decision (of two people in a car as against the rail fare) makes no odds if it's a child or not ! ? !

For £5 you can use the first class lounge at St Pancras on the way back. So just give yourself plenty of time for possible delays (say 5 hours after your scheduled arrival) and then if you're on time, just make your way slowly to St Pancras and then when you are there sit in warmth with free wifi, coffee, tea, papers etc! I did this at Kings Cross, as East Coast do a similar £5 supplement, when flying from Gatwick and travelling to Durham last week and it worked nicely.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . parking (plus will the car be OK there?!)

I once returned to Gatwick by air to look for my car in the Car Park.

It was there, but not in the place at which I'd left it!

The Police guessed that it had been taken to be used as a taxi for a while and returned before, either, the fuel ran out, or the owner might return!

 

[Nick O. Teen]

Just a thought: have a look at Sheffield-Reading (XC) then Reading-Gatwick (good old FGW); a bit of a longer journey, but only one change of train, and none of the hassle of the Underground in London. Should be a bit cheaper than going via London, too.