ticketing mistakes made by railway staff

[kkgbd2223]

Hello,

This morning I purchased a ticket from REDACTED station to London Padington via Reading. I did not spot that REDACTED (it says on the receipt) sold an "off-peak day single" instead of the required "Any Time Day Single" despite me making it clear the journey I intended to make. I arrrived at Reading station where this mistake was spotted by the gateline staff who permitted me to "fix it" by purchasing an "Excess" for the difference at the Reading ticket office.

Whilst I realise that I should have checked that REDACTED had issued the correct ticket, I reasonably expect Railway staff to issue the correct ticket first time round especially if the journey being taken has been made crystal clear.

I'm sure REDACTED made an honest mistake, but I couldn't help notice that the Great Western Railway ticket vending machines allow one to purchase an "off peak" ticket during the core peak times when this ticket is clearly not valid, I also notice that the "off peak" ticket is placed as the first entry at the top of the screen in the extensive menu of ticket options. I have no visibility of the ticket computer staff use so cannot comment on how their screens are arranged.

In my opinion only, it does appear that the arrangement of the screens on the ticket machines is likely to lead to honest mistakes being made by passengers who otherwise intend to fully pay the correct fare for their journey. Mistakes like this being hard to prove that the passenger made a genuine mistake leading to the issue of a PFN and/or prosecution (hence extra revenue for TOCs). I read on these forums other passengers who have found themselves in similar circumstances.

I don't like being exposed on these things, whilst my case was resolved quickly without fuss and looks to be a genuine mistake, I think I'm going to educate myself on section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 (with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss) and also equip myself with one of those body CCTV cameras the RPIs have got.

I'll stop there.

Thanks,

 

[MichaelAMW]

I don't like being exposed on these things, whilst my case was resolved quickly without fuss and looks to be a genuine mistake, I think I'm going to educate myself on section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 (with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss) and also equip myself with one of those body CCTV cameras the RPIs have got.

I'll stop there.

Thanks,

Where do you think you have seen any "intent" to do any of those things in the episode you relate?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you were charged an excess, you did pay the correct fare, there is no fee for an excess.

 

[furlong]

There have been problems with both the wording and the implementation of the restrictions in this area of country for years and nobody seems bothered to fix them. Some could be considered errors in favour of the passenger; others in favour of the train companies.

As I read it, it was strictly valid to use your ticket as far as Reading at that time - so the ticket machine indeed needs to sell it for that reason - but it was not valid to use it between Reading and Paddington until later in the morning. So you are expected to have a long wait (or break your journey) at Reading. You should have been given the choice and the machines should explain the restrictions and have you click 'ok' to confirm you understand and that the ticket is right for you.

 

[furlong]

Penalty Fares don't apply where the only problem is a time restriction:

4.29...Under rule 7, a passenger may not be charged a penalty fare if he or she has a ticket for the journey which they are making that is not valid on that train only because of a ticket restriction. In these cases, the passenger only needs to pay the excess fare, in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Similarly before any prosecution, there'd likely be evidence that the passenger both knew an excess was required (e.g. it was known to have happened before) and did something to indicate they were trying to avoid paying it (e.g. ignoring staff passing through the train asking people who still need a ticket to buy one or attempting to pass through the Paddington barriers instead of going to the adjacent Excess Fares office first).

 

[WelshBluebird]

There have been problems with both the wording and the implementation of the restrictions in this area of country for years and nobody seems bothered to fix them. Some could be considered errors in favour of the passenger; others in favour of the train companies.

As I read it, it was strictly valid to use your ticket as far as Reading at that time - so the ticket machine indeed needs to sell it for that reason - but it was not valid to use it between Reading and Paddington until later in the morning. So you are expected to have a long wait (or break your journey) at Reading. You should have been given the choice and the machines should explain the restrictions and have you click 'ok' to confirm you understand and that the ticket is right for you.

Tbh I think TVM's should be able to sell the off peak ticket at any time anyway. What if you wanted to catch the very first off peak train? Wouldn't be great if you couldn't buy the ticket until the time it was valid then in that case. But I agree the wording etc really does need to be worked on. Making restrictions clear and not displaying tickets as "featured" (or whatever you want to call it) until they are valid (but still allowing people to search for them).

 

[BestWestern]

People cock it up sometimes. Drop a line to GWR cuddly services explaining the aggro sorting it out at Reading delayed you, and I expect they'll send you some vouchers and an apology. You don't need to repeatedly name the individual as if they've just been convicted of some terrible crime.

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't like being exposed on these things, whilst my case was resolved quickly without fuss and looks to be a genuine mistake, I think I'm going to educate myself on section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 (with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss) and also equip myself with one of those body CCTV cameras the RPIs have got.

I'll stop there.

Thanks,

I cannnot see what relevance the 2006 Fraud Act has to do with this matter; perhaps you could explain?

I suggest you read up on the legalities on the use of CCTV, especially whilst on railway premises.:roll:

 

[Cantab26]

Where do you think you have seen any "intent" to do any of those things in the episode you relate?

Indeed. There is also the question of whether the mental element of dishonesty is made out and whether any representation was actually made, let alone a false one.

Quite why a TOC would even bother with fraud offences in the first place is also beyond me!

 

[kkgbd2223]

Thank you all for your replies.

At no point have I made any allegation of "incompetenace", "fraud" or any other act that may or may not put me at risk of loss on the part of Railway staff. I clearly stated in my post that I accept this as a genuine mistake - we all make them, that is no indication of incompetance.

My motivation for the post was the concern/surprise of being stopped at the ticket gateline at Reading station with a ticket that is not valid for the journey I was making and hence this putting me in a position where I could be issued with a PFN and/or prosecution with no means for me to prove that I clearly stated my journey when I bought my ticket, and hence was mistakenly sold the wrong ticket.

I don't want to be in this position again (nor anyone else), I accept I should double check what I am sold as I stated in my original post. In the interests of protecting myself, I will investigate using "body CAM" CCTV camera to record all transactions with Railway staff - I don't know if I'm legally allowed to do that etc, etc.

I will not be pursuing this with Great Western and consider the matter closed.

Thank you all.

 

[Greenback]

I have removed information that identifies the location and the time of the incident.

I agree that it's human error. If you had checked what you were given at the point of purchase then I'm sure the mistake would have been put right, quickly and without fuss.

 

[6Gman]

I'm slightly confused. Was the ticket bought at a TVM or from a member of staff?

 

[PeterC]

I'm slightly confused. Was the ticket bought at a TVM or from a member of staff?

Two issues.
1. He was sold the wrong ticket by the ticket office
2. TVM also offered an off peak ticket as the first choice during peak times.

 

[furlong]

hence this putting me in a position where I could be issued with a PFN and/or prosecution

As I indicated in my post, there's nothing that would support either a PFN or a prosecution in the circumstances you described.

 

[Sprinter153]

I accept this as a genuine mistake - we all make them, that is no indication of incompetance.

How would you feel if I was to come and find you at your place of work (if any), discover you made an honest mistake and then plaster your name all over the Internet, juxtaposed with terms like 'fraud' and threats to record future interactions?

People will make mistakes; if you're as understanding of that as you say, contact GWR about it and move on.

 

[AlterEgo]

One of the most OTT threads in a while.

To summarise, the OP was sold an Off Peak instead of an Anytime and when the mistake was noticed the gate line staff correctly issued an excess fare to correct this.

And now the OP talks about fraud (like it was done deliberately!) and wearing a bodycam as if he's some sort of American cop. You couldn't make it up.

 

[IanXC]

To summarise, the OP was sold an Off Peak instead of an Anytime and when the mistake was noticed the gate line staff correctly issued an excess fare to correct this.

Although, as yet it is unclear whether the original sale was incorrect, or whether the excess was incorrect - the ticket in question is restricted by arrival in London...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Hello,

. . . . . I think I'm going to educate myself on section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 (with intent to make a gain for himself or another, to cause loss to another or to expose another to risk of loss) and also equip myself with one of those body CCTV cameras the RPIs have got.

Please don't. Not to the Act, nor (more significantly) to its subsequent case law.
It won't be of the slightest benefit to you, nor to anyone else interested in the circumstances of your journey.

I do hope you enjoy the rest of your time here.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I have removed information that identifies the location and the time of the incident.

I agree that it's human error. If you had checked what you were given at the point of purchase then I'm sure the mistake would have been put right, quickly and without fuss.

Indeed far less fuss than is being made on this forum....

 

[rs101]

How would you feel if I was to come and find you at your place of work (if any), discover you made an honest mistake and then plaster your name all over the Internet, juxtaposed with terms like 'fraud' and threats to record future interactions?

People will make mistakes; if you're as understanding of that as you say, contact GWR about it and move on.

Tbh I think TVM's should be able to sell the off peak ticket at any time anyway. What if you wanted to catch the very first off peak train? Wouldn't be great if you couldn't buy the ticket until the time it was valid then in that case. But I agree the wording etc really does need to be worked on. Making restrictions clear and not displaying tickets as "featured" (or whatever you want to call it) until they are valid (but still allowing people to search for them).

The TVMs used by GA at Colchester & Manningtree (at least) will sell an off peak or super off peak ticket to London at any time, but display a clear warning of the restrictions which the user has to accept before the ticket is issued. Seems a sensible solution to me.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Apologies for plagiarising rs101's post without quoting directly, but I agree, this really should be the standard for all future TVMs

TVMs will sell an off peak or super off peak ticket at any time, but will display a clear warning of the restrictions, which the user has to accept before the ticket will be issued by the machine.

TVMs should sell the wider range of tickets, but the operating process should include the fact that the purchaser MUST make a press button, or touch screen acceptance confirming that they understand that the restriction has been advised before the ticket will print.

Additionally, it should not be beyond the wit of the developers to organise the ticket design to add the printed indication to read: Restrictions advised at: in position just before where the time of issue indication is printed on the ticket itself.

One of the most OTT threads in a while.

To summarise, the OP was sold an Off Peak instead of an Anytime and when the mistake was noticed the gate line staff correctly issued an excess fare to correct this.

And now the OP talks about fraud (like it was done deliberately!) and wearing a bodycam as if he's some sort of American cop. You couldn't make it up.

That said, I agree with the above, it seems from the OP's account this was an error that was subsequently corrected and only the proper fare due was therefore charged.

 

[[.n]]

One of the most OTT threads in a while.

To summarise, the OP was sold an Off Peak instead of an Anytime and when the mistake was noticed the gate line staff correctly issued an excess fare to correct this.

And now the OP talks about fraud (like it was done deliberately!) and wearing a bodycam as if he's some sort of American cop. You couldn't make it up.

And in this case it all worked out fine for the OP - correct fare paid, it was acknowledged there was no wrongdoing, just simple human error.

It does however highlight that this happens sometimes, and more often than not is the problem occurs when the the gate line staff don't believe you and treat you like a criminal, with threats of penalty fares, legal action etc.

You're correct on this occasion the OP has learnt a lesson, do double check the ticket you purchased is the one you meant to buy - that would have solved the issue straight away.

 

[EM2]

I'm intrigued by the idea that a staff member's name appeared on the OP's receipt? I'm pretty sure this has never been printed on any receipt I've received.

 

[jon0844]

One of the most OTT threads in a while.

To summarise, the OP was sold an Off Peak instead of an Anytime and when the mistake was noticed the gate line staff correctly issued an excess fare to correct this.

And now the OP talks about fraud (like it was done deliberately!) and wearing a bodycam as if he's some sort of American cop. You couldn't make it up.

If he was an American cop he would of course not use it when actually needed!

Surely the OP makes a polite complaint to point out any errors on the ticketing system, and maybe the delay, and leaves it at that? No need to write to MPs, the serious fraud office or set up a petition calling for the return of the death penalty....

 

[voyagerdude220]

I'm intrigued by the idea that a staff member's name appeared on the OP's receipt? I'm pretty sure this has never been printed on any receipt I've received.

It certainly does on the TIS I use at work, (STAR machines), I believe GWR also use them, but I'm not sure.

 

[trentside]

It certainly does on the TIS I use at work, (STAR machines), I believe GWR also use them, but I'm not sure.

Yes, it can be set up on Fujitsu STAR. IIRC you had the option to change it in the user settings when I worked in booking offices. Mine just stated that they were served by "... Ticket Office".

Staff, in theory, should also be wearing badges so getting a name is easy enough without it being printed on the receipt.