Ticketing changes to Southern franchise?

[gray1404]

Will we see any changes to the current ticketing or fares offered when Southern becomes GTR and that is the operating TOC? Given that the "Southern" brand shall be staying would it be fair to say, no.

More specifically:-
1. Will we still have Route: "Thameslink Only" tickets on the Brighton - London route?
2. What about Southern and London Midland only tickets?
3. Southern only tickets and also "not Gatwick express"

I am hoping much of the current ticketing stays as, despite the problems, it does provide a lot of choice for the passenger and a range of fares.

 

[Starmill]

I think the DfT have asked that this specifically be sorted out in the GTR franchise agreement. No reason why SN&LM shouldn't go, but the Thameslink Only fares aren't looking hugely sustainable right now...

 

[MikeWh]

I am hoping much of the current ticketing stays as, despite the problems, it does provide a lot of choice for the passenger and a range of fares.

You're one of the few that are. Trying to explain to the ordinary man in the street what the best/cheapest way to get from Gatwick Airport to various London destinations is an absolute nightmare. Many give up and get the most expensive just to be safe.

 

[JaJaWa]

I can't find the appropriate section in the franchise agreement at the moment, but I am aware that it involves removing the Thameslink only fares you mentioned in your first point.

Reading The Telegraph: Rail passengers 'hit with £664 fare rise', it appears it is planned for the Thameslink only fare to gradually rise to the level of the Any Permitted fare rather than being removed straight away;

A spokeswoman said: "We are running the new franchise on a management basis, which means that all income from fares goes to the Government rather than to the company. As such it is up to the Department for Transport to set the fares.
"It will be up to them to decide how fast this will happen and set the fare levels, but it does mean that the Thameslink-only fares will increase at a higher rate than the Southern ones in order for them to eventually equalise.
"The rate at which the fares are 'harmonised' is yet to be determined by the DfT."

Claire Perry, the Transport Minister, said: ..."When we move from two operators to one on the line, as part of a better franchise deal providing new trains and better services, fares will be gradually equalised. This will be carefully managed to ensure commuters travelling on the discounted First Capital Connect-only fare do not face sharp fare rises."

The thread Default Penalty Fare at Victoria (Southern vs Gat Ex) has mentioned the issue of Govia attempting to restrict fares to different brands of their train operating company. So in practice, a Thameslink only ticket could technically be valid on all of Govia Thameslink Railway's services, allowing a saving to be made until the fares are equalised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're one of the few that are. Trying to explain to the ordinary man in the street what the best/cheapest way to get from Gatwick Airport to various London destinations is an absolute nightmare. Many give up and get the most expensive just to be safe.

I would like to see one fare for London to Gatwick, Any Permitted, in order to stop air passengers from being encouraged to pointlessly clog up commuter trains with their luggage when there is a perfectly good service there with provision for that intended specifically for their use.

 

[Stats]

It was stated at the beginning of the franchise by both Charles Horton and Claire Perry that Thameslink only fares will remain but the differential between them and Southern/any permitted fares will decrease over time until they are eventually equalised.

Edit - Found the sources:

[youtube]atHPjI4P6bQ[/youtube] (56secs in)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...2/Rail-passengers-hit-with-664-fare-rise.html

Claire Perry, the Transport Minister, said:

“When we move from two operators to one on the line, as part of a better franchise deal providing new trains and better services, fares will be gradually equalised. This will be carefully managed to ensure commuters travelling on the discounted First Capital Connect-only fare do not face sharp fare rises."

 

[talldave]

It was stated at the beginning of the franchise by both Charles Horton and Claire Perry that Thameslink only fares will remain but the differential between them and Southern/any permitted fares will decrease over time until they are eventually equalised.

So the Southern-only and Any permitted fares will be reduced down to Thameslink-only levels then?

 

[Clip]

One could wish!

 

[JonathanH]

I would like to see one fare for London to Gatwick, Any Permitted, in order to stop air passengers from being encouraged to pointlessly clog up commuter trains with their luggage when there is a perfectly good service there with provision for that intended specifically for their use.

The problem with that is that it would require an increase to fares all along the Brighton main line to remove the multiplicity of fares since otherwise people would try to start short on other tickets. Are you advocating one fare to London from all South Central division locations.

Besides, not everyone wants to go to Victoria so not all Gatwick passengers even wish to take the Gatwick Express in the first place. If passengers from London Bridge to Gatwick are on outer-suburban trains, why shouldn't passengers from London Victoria also be.

Moreover, I would assume that aligning fares and removing the Gatwick Express premium has been looked at and rejected because of the associated revenue loss. The interesting thing is how integration with Oyster will interact with this.

 

[gray1404]

So the Southern-only and Any permitted fares will be reduced down to Thameslink-only levels then?

Sounds good to me! The sooner the better I say. How soon though would it be if its going to be "gradual?"

But would fares like the weekend only Super Off Peak Day Return from Brighton to London stay? (currently Thameslink only)

 

[transmanche]

But would fares like the weekend only Super Off Peak Day Return from Brighton to London stay? (currently Thameslink only)

Althought there is a Super Off-Peak Day Return from Brighton to London Terminals, Route: Thameslink Only for £10.40; there's an identically-priced Super Off-Peak Day Return from Brighton to St Pancras Route: Not Underground.

Which I have always thought a bit odd...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with that is that it would require an increase to fares all along the Brighton main line to remove the multiplicity of fares since otherwise people would try to start short on other tickets. Are you advocating one fare to London from all South Central division locations.

One[1] fare from each station, yes. Not the same fare from Brighton as Gatwick!

[1] I don't mean Anytime only, I mean one set of fares, all routed Any Permitted.

 

[Haywain]

Althought there is a Super Off-Peak Day Return from Brighton to London Terminals, Route: Thameslink Only for £10.40; there's an identically-priced Super Off-Peak Day Return from Brighton to St Pancras Route: Not Underground.

Which I have always thought a bit odd...

Nothing odd about that, as St Pancras is not a London Terminals station when travelling from the south.

 

[transmanche]

Althought there is a Super Off-Peak Day Return from Brighton to London Terminals, Route: Thameslink Only for £10.40; there's an identically-priced Super Off-Peak Day Return from Brighton to St Pancras Route: Not Underground.

Which I have always thought a bit odd...

Nothing odd about that, as St Pancras is not a London Terminals station when travelling from the south.

One is restricted to Thameslink services only. The other one isn't. (Both are priced by GTR.)

 

[gray1404]

Its worth knowing about that one because it means it is valid on Southern too, and you would be able to finish short at say City Thameslink or London Bridge for example, or one of the other stations. (provided you didn't go off route into Victoria or Waterloo)

 

[MikeWh]

Its worth knowing about that one because it means it is valid on Southern too, and you would be able to finish short at say City Thameslink or London Bridge for example, or one of the other stations. (provided you didn't go off route into Victoria or Waterloo)

There is a school of thought that says Victoria could be valid in certain circumstances. However ...

Waterloo is defintely valid as East Croydon - Clapham Junction - Waterloo - Waterloo East - London Bridge - St Pancras is a valid route. It matters not that you can't actually do it on National Rail services at the moment.

 

[gray1404]

There is a school of thought that says Victoria could be valid in certain circumstances. However ...

Waterloo is defintely valid as East Croydon - Clapham Junction - Waterloo - Waterloo East - London Bridge - St Pancras is a valid route. It matters not that you can't actually do it on National Rail services at the moment.

That being the case then I'd be tempted to do: Brighton to Clapham Junction on SN and then CLJ to Waterloo on SWT.

However, are you likely to run into problems at the gateline? (and the threat of a PF)

 

[talldave]

Althought there is a Super Off-Peak Day Return from Brighton to London Terminals, Route: Thameslink Only for £10.40; there's an identically-priced Super Off-Peak Day Return from Brighton to St Pancras Route: Not Underground.

Which I have always thought a bit odd...

The latter ticket is effectively Thameslink only AND Not Underground but they skip the Thameslink only part! In the good old days when trains stopped at London Bridge it was the no-brainer ticket to buy for London Bridge as it offers Southern travel as well. It's a perfect example of talldave's first law of rail travel - always consider buying a ticket to somewhere you're not going.

 

[zoneking]

The problem with that is that it would require an increase to fares all along the Brighton main line to remove the multiplicity of fares since otherwise people would try to start short on other tickets. Are you advocating one fare to London from all South Central division locations.

Besides, not everyone wants to go to Victoria so not all Gatwick passengers even wish to take the Gatwick Express in the first place. If passengers from London Bridge to Gatwick are on outer-suburban trains, why shouldn't passengers from London Victoria also be.

Moreover, I would assume that aligning fares and removing the Gatwick Express premium has been looked at and rejected because of the associated revenue loss. The interesting thing is how integration with Oyster will interact with this.

This is true for regular customers, but for foreign people just arriving into Gatwick, too many, who are surely wanting to go to either London Victoria or London Bridge, end up getting the stopping Horsham ( or Redhill) trains. These are often very crowded (four cars). I suspect they arrive at Gatwick and see the time of the first train leaving and get this train, without realising that they will get to their destination much sooner, and in greater comfort, if they get a faster but later train. There should be announcements at Gatwick (if there aren't already) that the fastest train to London Victoria/Bridge will be departing at platform X at YY.YY.

 

[greatkingrat]

Maybe the stoppers should be advertised as destination New Cross Gate if they are overtaken en route?

 

[Fortitude]

The new Southern website will not currently allow the purchase of DaySave tickets. Curiously it no longer shows the DaySave ticket in the menu on the left hand side of the website.

Sadly, it would appear that the Southern DaySave ticket has been withdrawn.

It was getting more and more expensive anyway, but it would appear that my travels on Southern Trains have come to an end...

 

[themeone]

The new Southern website will not currently allow the purchase of DaySave tickets. Curiously it no loner shows the DaySave ticket in the menu on the left hand side of the website.

Sadly, it would appear that the Southern DaySave ticket has been withdrawn.

It was getting more and more expensive anyway, but it would appear that my travels on Southern Trains have come to an end...

I was also looking for this ticket today. There's a notice on the website that says DaySave is temporarily unavailable online. I'm hoping therefore to buy one at the ticket office on Monday.

Can anyone confirm if there are plans to withdraw the DaySave?

 

[LBSCR Times]

Another interesting thing to note, following the timetable change this weekend, are two different levels of fares for travel from Brighton to Victoria, offpeak. One for the fast, Gatwick Express services, and a cheaper one for the Southern semi-slows.
This also applies if you travel up from Hove. For example, if the Up London is cancelled and you travel on the next service in to Brighton, you cannot use the Fast service, unless ticket acceptance is in place. Not sure about further west, eg: Worthing.

 

[Bishopstone]

Another interesting thing to note, following the timetable change this weekend, are two different levels of fares for travel from Brighton to Victoria, offpeak. One for the fast, Gatwick Express services, and a cheaper one for the Southern semi-slows.

The Gatwick Express departures from Brighton (xx.18 and xx.48) seem to be timetabled at 57 or 58 minutes, whilst the Southern departures (xx.28 and xx.58) are timetabled at 56 minutes. The latter have more stops, but presumably GatEx is booked to dwell at the airport for a few minutes for loading purposes and/or pathing reasons.

So you pay more for the slower service and, when the 387s are introduced, arguably for a less comfortable train, albeit with 'free' Wi-Fi for the £10.10 (ouch!) premium on a return fare.

 

[Kite159]

I was also looking for this ticket today. There's a notice on the website that says DaySave is temporarily unavailable online. I'm hoping therefore to buy one at the ticket office on Monday.

Can anyone confirm if there are plans to withdraw the DaySave?

Currently only available to be purchased from the tourist information centres at Eastbourne, Lewes & Seaford (unless Southern have changed them again since Thursday).

Probably a plot to redraw the ticket citing 'lack of usage'.

----

I can predict a few RPIs on board the Gat Express branded services come the new timetable, getting ready to charge anybody unlucky enough to be travelling on a "Not Gatwick Express" ticket

So don't worry everybody if you want a seat, pay the extra for the slower train with anybody knowing what the score is (i.e. cheaper tickets) will be rammed onto the regular semi-fast.

 

[Bishopstone]

I can predict a few RPIs on board the Gat Express branded services come the new timetable, getting ready to charge anybody unlucky enough to be travelling on a "Not Gatwick Express" ticket

I'm not so sure. This has 'bad publicity' and 'minefield' written all over it.

 

[greatkingrat]

Another interesting thing to note, following the timetable change this weekend, are two different levels of fares for travel from Brighton to Victoria, offpeak. One for the fast, Gatwick Express services, and a cheaper one for the Southern semi-slows.
This also applies if you travel up from Hove. For example, if the Up London is cancelled and you travel on the next service in to Brighton, you cannot use the Fast service, unless ticket acceptance is in place. Not sure about further west, eg: Worthing.

Tried searching for a Brighton - London journey in January and is showing the same walkup fares whatever service is used. The only difference seems to be that advance fares are not available on the Gatwick Express services.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Tried searching for a Brighton - London journey in January and is showing the same walkup fares whatever service is used. The only difference seems to be that advance fares are not available on the Gatwick Express services.

The Super Off-Peak returns are not valid on the Gatwick Express services from Brighton.
The same apply from Hove too.

 

[Bishopstone]

Tried searching for a Brighton - London journey in January and is showing the same walkup fares whatever service is used. The only difference seems to be that advance fares are not available on the Gatwick Express services.

This is a screen scrape for Tuesday (15th) morning.

Offering Day Returns on the Southern trains for £17.80, but £27.90 on the GatEx services. Or have I mis-understood something?

 

[gray1404]

I think it is about time for a proper challenge over using Southern tickets on Gatwick Express.