Ticketing a Trent Valley safari from Birmingham

[Royston Vasey]

During a business trip to Birmingham in July, I have decided to spend a weekday evening hopping down the Trent Valley, and am looking for the best way to ticket this, ideally flexibly, to include an hour or so at each of Rugeley Trent Valley, Tamworth and Nuneaton. The curves at Rugeley, and two levels of Tamworth and the sheer variety of Nuneaton appeal.

I'll be at the NEC in the daytime, but as it stands I am booked into a hotel near Birmingham New Street. So after a quick change of clothes, the itinerary would be:

Birmingham International (BHI) - Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) - Tamworth (TAM) - Nuneaton (NUN) - Birmingham New Street (BHM)

I am struggling to ticket this flexibly, and wondered if there is something clever I can do to minimise the cost here, ideally to less than £20. I have no relevant railcards.

Consulting the routing guide, I can see that Birmingham International or Birmingham Group to Rugeley is only valid on Map BP which does not confer any Trent Valley validity https://vaildata.uk/routeing?orp=G02&drp=RGL&map=BP.

My next check was to investigate ticketing from Coventry (COV), as I know that Coventry has validity via BHI, some good value off peak options including n-network specials, but also a lot more routeing points in play. So my best candidate at the moment is the off peak return COV-RGL for £16 which has no break of journey restrictions. I can start short at BHI, and the return is valid to Tamworth and Nuneaton, but it is not then valid via BHM where I would end my journey. So I would need either

- Outbound:

Start short, BHI 16:21-17:39 RGL on Map WM https://vaildata.uk/routeing?orp=COV&drp=RGL&map=WM​

- Return option 1

RGL 18:42-18:55 TAM​

TAM 20:56-21:10 NUN​

NUN 22:37-22:58 COV all valid on Map TL https://vaildata.uk/routeing?orp=RGL&drp=COV&map=TL​

COV 23:45-00:23 BHM requiring an Evening Day Single £3.50​

Connections at Coventry aren't great at all, unless I hope the 22:40 Avanti or 22:54 LM are running late​

- Return option 2

RGL 18:42-18:55 TAM​

TAM 20:56-21:10 NUN (finish short)​

NUN 22:52-23:22 BHM requiring an Anytime Day Single £14.30 (!) - had expected this to be cheap as chips but no such luck!​

Although Map BP+WM are a mapped route from Rugeley to Coventry via Birmingham, I would need to switch mapped route from TL to BP+WM during the return journey to avail of it, so I know this is not allowed https://vaildata.uk/routeing?orp=RGL&drp=COV&map=BP+WM+TL hence the need for a second ticket.

I am pretty happy with £19.50 for option 1, but can I do any better than this? Asking a lot here but is there an origin and destination that confers Trent Valley validity but also a return via Nuneaton and Birmingham?

 

[blimmo]

Not got time to check but is Wilnecote a useful destination for you? I believe Coventry to Wilnecote is valid via Tamworth and via BHM.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Not got time to check but is Wilnecote a useful destination for you? I believe Coventry to Wilnecote is valid via Tamworth and via BHM.

Not bad thinking at £14.40, but I couldn't also visit Rugeley that way without additional tickets (Trainsplit offering split singles £33). Your suggestion made me look into Coventry to Tamworth, which could be used for BHI-BHM-NUN-TAM-NUN-BHM at only £13.30, but again no Rugeley.

Coventry to Rugeley is a lot more range for not a lot more money!


Coventry to Tamworth is interesting though, the forum site will offer me an itinerary:

Outbound: COV-BHI-BHM-NUN-TAM (Mapped via TL https://vaildata.uk/routeing?orp=COV&drp=TAM&map=TL)
Return: TAM-BHM-NUN-RUG-COV (Mapped via WM https://vaildata.uk/routeing?orp=TAM&drp=COV&map=WM) (to be clear that's RUGby not RuGeLey)

Interesting that a valid route from Tamworth to Coventry could include going into Birmingham, back out to Nuneaton, down to Rugby, and back up to Coventry. It's a bit circuitous, but mapped. If I wanted to switch a Rugeley dwell for a Rugby dwell it could be fun. It's practically a mini ranger. Link to Forum ticket site:

https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/re...0C0&adv:ib:Via=7010770C60,7011270P,7010870C30

I could then add the same £3.50 COV-BHM single, staying on the same train from Rugby to Coventry back to Birmingham, total £17.80! Thanks for the inspiration!

 

[blimmo]

Wait COV-TAM is valid to go into BHM and back out to Nuneaton?! Last time I had that ticket I got a "via Nuneaton" routed fare (I think) and tried to route excess one direction via Birmingham but maybe that wasn't necessary?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Wait COV-TAM is valid to go into BHM and back out to Nuneaton?! Last time I had that ticket I got a "via Nuneaton" routed fare (I think) and tried to route excess one direction via Birmingham but maybe that wasn't necessary?

I can certainly get an itinerary and it doesn't seem to violate the routeing guide... from my non expert reading of the routeing points... perhaps the Trainsplit/Forum staff could comment? @Mike395

 

[MrJeeves]

Wait COV-TAM is valid to go into BHM and back out to Nuneaton?! Last time I had that ticket I got a "via Nuneaton" routed fare (I think) and tried to route excess one direction via Birmingham but maybe that wasn't necessary?

I certainly don't think it's intended to be used in this way, but yes it's valid.

You can use the split routeing rule to take any permitted route from Coventry to Nuneaton, which could be Coventry - Birmingham - Nuneaton, and then you can take any permitted route from Nuneaton to Tamworth which would only the direct route.

This makes the journey permitted, compared to the mapped routes for Coventry to Tamworth which wouldn't allow the portion of the journey from Nuneaton to Tamworth in the screenshot from @Royston Vasey above.

The same rule can be (ab)used for a lot of geographically routed tickets with very interesting results. In this case, the Via Nuneaton fare lets you do everything the Any Permitted does, and more.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I did have a thought after writing the opening post, and that is why not stay in Coventry, given the journey to the NEC is 9-18 minutes (Anytime Day Return £5.20), compared to Birmingham New Street which is also 9-18 minutes (Anytime Day Return £9.30)

If I was indeed based in Coventry, I would be getting no later than the 09:27 COV-BHI to the event, returning on any afternoon train.

The COV-RGL Off-Peak Day Return is valid from 0900; the COV-TAM Off-Peak Day Return is valid from 09:30

So the Rugeley option means that on one £16.00 ticket, I can travel from Coventry to Birmingham International for work in the morning, then Rugeley, Tamworth and Nuneaton in the evening, returning to Coventry to be tucked up in bed by 23:30!

I certainly don't think it's intended to be used in this way, but yes it's valid.

You can use the split routeing rule to take any permitted route from Coventry to Nuneaton, which could be Coventry - Birmingham - Nuneaton, and then you can take any permitted route from Nuneaton to Tamworth which would only the direct route.

This makes the journey permitted, compared to the mapped routes for Coventry to Tamworth which wouldn't allow the portion of the journey from Nuneaton to Tamworth in the screenshot from @Royston Vasey above.

The same rule can be (ab)used for a lot of geographically routed tickets with very interesting results. In this case, the Via Nuneaton fare lets you do everything the Any Permitted does, and more.

Very very interesting results. Well the railway is a stickler for the strict interpretation of the letter of the law, after all!

 

[MrJeeves]

Well the railway is a stickler for the strict interpretation of the letter of the law, after all!

Until they realise the strict interpretation isn't in their favour...!

 

[Haywain]

You can use the split routeing rule

What is the "split routeing rule"?

 

[Royston Vasey]

What is the "split routeing rule"?

Yes I was under the impression you couldn't switch routes half way too, hence my comment in post 1 switching from Map TL to Maps BP+WM at Nuneaton to reach Birmingham.

 

[MrJeeves]

What is the "split routeing rule"?

Where a ticket is routed via one or more specific locations, you can combine the permitted routes from the ticket origin to that via location, and from that via location to the ticket destination.

The routeing guide instructions very briefly gloss over this:

Where the fare specifies a particular route, there will be restrictions in the fare routes data that will affect the routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. The National Routeing Guide may be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description.

For tickets routed "A/B", you can split the routeing calculation at either station A or station B, but not both. For tickets routed "A&B" you can split at either station or both stations, and you can do this in either order. I'm not sure where "A-B" stands here, but a journey planner would interpret Warminster-Salisbury as an "A&B" route.

The routeing guide rules for journey planners goes into further detail on this matter, indicating it is intended:

9.2 Journey Splitting

9.2.1 Application of the routeing guide to routed fares

9.2.1.1 If a routed fare is found to be invalid, then the journey can be split at the via locations contained in the route descriptor. Each part of the journey must follow a permitted route. If all part journeys are permitted, then the routed fare is valid, and the journey is deemed to be “split for routeing”.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Until they realise the strict interpretation isn't in their favour...!

Indeed, and one of the options offered by Trainsplit as I was playing with itineraries, included a £6.80 Rugeley to Rugby WMR advance single with a two hour change at Tamworth and a one hour change at Nuneaton.

But I felt that having an advance ticket checked/scanned three separate times on separate trains hours apart on a short journey was probably fraught with risk!

We've discussed on here before getting fixed time itineraries with long layovers to go about your business, and breaking the journey not being the intention of adding extra connection time. One I almost booked in the past was a very cheap Coventry to Stansted Airport advance with a five hour break at Birmingham International. I didn't do so in the end. I wouldn't want to abuse a facility that might later get taken away, I don't know what I'd do without Trainsplit's endless tinkering possibilities

 

[Haywain]

But I felt that having an advance ticket checked/scanned three separate times on separate trains hours apart on a short journey was probably fraught with risk!

How much risk can there be if you are following the itinerary?

 

[Royston Vasey]

How much risk can there be if you are following the itinerary?

Well, not zero, as @walkingsophie will attest! I might also wish to leave and reenter the station to get food, and wouldn't want to have to explain myself to multiple gatelines (if they are gated, I know Stafford isn't)

 

[MrJeeves]

Well, not zero, as @walkingsophie will attest!

Ah, but eventually you'll get an apology from the TOC, which you can frame and put on your wall!

 

[E B]

Well, not zero, as @walkingsophie will attest! I might also wish to leave and reenter the station to get food, and wouldn't want to have to explain myself to multiple gatelines (if they are gated, I know Stafford isn't)

Nuneaton and Tamworth both have no gateline.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Ah, but eventually you'll get an apology from the TOC, which you can frame and put on your wall!

Not to mention the wall of the grand ballroom at Trainsplit Towers!

 

[Haywain]

Well, not zero, as @walkingsophie will attest! I might also wish to leave and reenter the station to get food, and wouldn't want to have to explain myself to multiple gatelines (if they are gated, I know Stafford isn't)

I think the odds of encountering any problems are extremely small on the Trent Valley compared to what they are at a station like London Waterloo.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I think the odds of encountering any problems are extremely small on the Trent Valley compared to what they are at a station like London Waterloo.

This is undoubtedly true. If I had bought the ticket I'd have been confident in asserting my rights to use it, and may well not have encountered a single ticket check or staff member all evening anyway.

 

[walkingsophie]

Ah, but eventually you'll get an apology from the TOC, which you can frame and put on your wall!

Unfortunately the apology is only an email. Maybe I should get "caught" once again with an itinerary so that I get a physical letter apology to put on my wall